Sailing, safety, & size - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree77Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 10-26-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Regarding reefing sails, not necessarily, I mean a bigger boat can have to reef first. It has to do with boat design and you are right regarding smaller sails and loads to be an advantage.

Regarding RM and big boats the biggest advantage is the relation of the boat total RM and the size of the wave: Generally it will be needed a bigger breaking wave to capsize a bigger boat (assuming it has a bigger total RM).

Regarding smaller sails, modern boats that are a lot less heavier than old ones need less sail area. A bigger modern boat can have the same amount of sail of a considerably smaller much more heavier boat.

As the OP had said today the typical cruiser boat, specially the ones that are used offshore are much bigger than 30 or 40 years ago but they are not more difficult to sail. They are more stable and we can do all reefing from the cockpit without going forward on a narrow smaller boat that is much more unstable than a much bigger beamier boat.

40 years ago it was unthinkable to sail solo a 50 or 60ft sailboat, even with a little help from the wife: too much efforts, too much difficulty. Today there are lots of couples there sailing boats like those, because it had become easy: Smaller sails (from the same size of boat), Jib on a traveler, all (easy) reefing from the cockpit and remote controlled winches took most of the effort of sailing and made easy big boats. Because big boats are more seaworthy have a better sea motion and are faster the market went that way, or should I say, cruisers went that way?

Also if we compare the prices of boats, not the price of 40 year old boats but the the price of the few heavy boats that are still made, or where till few years ago, we can see that the price of a boat (unless it is a race boat) has a strong relation with weight. Today you can have a bigger boat for almost the same price that it would cost to build a much smaller old designed heavy full keeler with the same weight. As I explained the lighter and bigger boat have many advantages.





Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-26-2013 at 08:36 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 10-26-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,384
Thanks: 0
Thanked 112 Times in 100 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Today there are lots of couples there sailing boats like those, because it had become easy: Smaller sails (from the same size of boat), Jib on a traveler, all (easy) reefing from the cockpit and remote controlled winches took most of the effort of sailing and made easy big boats.


Yeah, you've gotta love that Push-Button Sailing, alright...

Especially, when you have to reach THROUGH the wheel to push them... :-)

I've really come to detest these sort of helm consoles that require one to stick your hand/arm through the spokes of the wheel to do something, they seem to becoming more and more commonplace... A VERY poor/dangerous arrangement, especially in cold or foul weather when you might be more encumbered by heavier clothing or gloves... That plotter could be fun to fiddle with, in a seaway with the AP kicking the wheel sharply back and forth...

Just a matter of time before compasses disappear completely from modern boats... Presumably, this one is that circular shape over the companionway... Hell, as distant as that is from the helm, I'd have to pull out a pair of binoculars to read the card on that freakin' thing :-)

I like the way Elaine Bunting said the boat is amazingly easy to sail, "as long as the systems are functioning..." :-)


fryewe, mitiempo and Delezynski like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 10-26-2013
capta's Avatar
Master Mariner
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: somewhere in the Windward or Leeward Islands
Posts: 1,224
Thanks: 11
Thanked 53 Times in 48 Posts
Rep Power: 4
capta is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
At a certain point a boat is too small, gotta have a certain amount of rm and anything under say 22' loa prob just won't have it. When the boat broaches, it must have enough weight in the keel at 90 degrees to bring her back up while her crew is hanging off the lifelines.
After that, all the other factors will be more imp than just size.
But a smaller boat has to change sails sooner and is waaaaaay less comfortable than a bigger boat. However short handed, smaller sails and loads can be a good thing.
OK then. So there's no way, a young Japanese man could have sailed from Japan to San Francisco on a 19 foot boat? Hum.....
If you say so.
Sublime and Delezynski like this.
__________________
"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.

Last edited by capta; 10-26-2013 at 11:20 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 10-26-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
I like the way Elaine Bunting said the boat is amazingly easy to sail, "as long as the systems are functioning..." :-)
Yes, a bit like an automobile is better than a coach...while everything keeps working. An automobile is such a complicated machine

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 10-27-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,644
Thanks: 10
Thanked 110 Times in 105 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
.....I've really come to detest these sort of helm consoles that require one to stick your hand/arm through the spokes of the wheel to do something......
I couldn't agree with this more. Annoying at the least.

Quote:
Just a matter of time before compasses disappear completely from modern boats... Presumably, this one is that circular shape over the companionway...
Also agreed. Given the number of times that I've been on autopilot and its way out of synch to compass heading, it amazes me that one would not want to be able to cross check the real compass. Sometimes due to computer error, others to interference with the buried AP compass. Electronics are great and I use them as primary nav, but ALWAYS crosscheck.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 10-27-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,644
Thanks: 10
Thanked 110 Times in 105 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, a bit like an automobile is better than a coach...while everything keeps working. An automobile is such a complicated machine
To be honest, an automobile is about a thousand times more reliable.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 10-27-2013
Delezynski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Currently in Az. and trailer to various places.
Posts: 248
Thanks: 10
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 1
Delezynski is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I couldn't agree with this more. Annoying at the least.
Also agreed. Given the number of times that I've been on autopilot and its way out of synch to compass heading, it amazes me that one would not want to be able to cross check the real compass. Sometimes due to computer error, others to interference with the buried AP compass. Electronics are great and I use them as primary nav, but ALWAYS crosscheck.
WAY back in 2005, I was about 20 miles off the Baja coast heading south. It was the mid watch, dark as you can get! Only the bio-luminescence. The sea was running 10+ with about a 10~12 second period. Not to bad conditions. I was using our compass, a Standard Horizon chart plotter, and plotting on paper once every half hour on our GPS driven Yeoman chart plotter. Autopilot and windvane self steering off.

Just for something to do, a test if you will, I turned off the light in our compass to see how well the chart plotter would work in place of the compass. A few threads on online boards around that time were talking about no longer needing a compass.

I switched the chart plotter through it's different displays for navigating, Highway mode, course up mode Etc. to see how well I could maintain my course.

You will get my compass when you pry it out of my dead wet soggy hands!!!!!!

I did not set the refresh rate to max on the unit, but even if I did, it would NOT be fast enough for me, and did NOT help me to anticipate. I felt like the it did a good job at telling me had had taken place but gave no indication of what will be going to happen. The compass has a natural swing to it that gives MORE information to the user. AT LEAST THAT'S HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT.

So, you young guys out there, revel in the modern, for me, I'll just stick with what I KNOW works for me, my vessel and my family.

Greg
__________________
Greg & Jill Delezynski
Nor'Sea 27, Guenevere
Home page -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Youtube page -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 10-27-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
To be honest, an automobile is about a thousand times more reliable.
Well, it seems that old lady that tested the HR 64 was not convinced either, I mean she was not convinced about the efficacy of those mechanic helps and had to change her opinion and even so the way she puts it it seems she raises some questions about reliability.

Fact is that these systems have been used on the last 20 years (increasingly) in top yachts, I mean really big yachts and have proven themselves as reliable as the systems used on a car and there is no reason to be otherwise. When these systems have a malfunction you have always the possibility operate them the old way, manually.

The real problem with these systems, that go from the computerized docking system with bow thrusters to the push buttons sail control, is price that make them very expensive in a small sailboat but these systems permits big 100ft yachts to be operated only for three, 60ft to be operated solo and allow old people to keep on sailing avoiding all the efforts that were otherwise needed and that they are not able to provide anymore.

I have to say that I prefer to keep it simple, if I can, but some facts with my own boat helped me to change of opinion regarding these systems:

I would not have bought a sailboat with electric winches but mine come with an electric winch and a remote control, that I thought it were pretty useless on a 41ft sailboat. I was wrong. I cannot fully put my big main (52 m2) fully up without the help of a winch and even putting 2/3 up it takes a considerably effort that I can do but someone weaker will not be able to do (I am big). Even for myself it take a considerable effort to put the sail up. Using the Electric winch I just pull the first 1/5 of the sail up by hand, out of the lazy bag and then use the electric winch and voilá, the sail up in 10s without any effort.

The boat is 7 years old and the winch works like if it was new.

Regarding the winch remote control, a weightless thing very small, I was so suspicious that on the first year never used the thing. Give it a try this year and now it is always around my neck. How coll it is to trim the main sail from the steering wheel at the push of a button? Very cool I can tell you. I only regret that the winch is not one of the new ones that allow trimming on the two positions, to let go and to pull.

I guess that on the third year with the boat I will have to learn how to use properly the remote control for the steering wheel that I confess, never used but that can proven very useful to solo sailing. In fact Solo racing sailors use it extensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yeah, you've gotta love that Push-Button Sailing, alright...

Especially, when you have to reach THROUGH the wheel to push them... :-)

I've really come to detest these sort of helm consoles that require one to stick your hand/arm through the spokes of the wheel to do something, they seem to becoming more and more commonplace... A VERY poor/dangerous arrangement, especially in cold or foul weather when you might be more encumbered by heavier clothing or gloves...
Jon, do you use the buttons on your TV? Anybody use them? No, everybody uses a remote control. The buttons are there as an emergency back up.

That's the same with those controls, they are remotely used from any part of the boat. Those big boats will almost be on autopilot all the time and will be steered from somewhere else. That plotter on the wheel is only a back up, the third one. The main plotter is on the nav. station and the one more used in navigation it will be the one under the big dodger that on the photos is down. They also offer an hard dodger but the removable one is almost as big and offer already a big protection.

On foul or cold weather, depending from the situation and where the boat is sailing, the boat will be sailed from the interior or from the protection of that big dodger, using the nav station there and a remote control for everything, from the rudder to the sails.







Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-27-2013 at 10:15 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 10-27-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Liberty Landing
Posts: 665
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
peterchech is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
OK then. So there's no way, a young Japanese man could have sailed from Japan to San Francisco on a 19 foot boat? Hum.....
If you say so.
For every story of a crazy feat, I will give you three of small boats with insufficient RM sinking after broaching badly in coastal conditions. There are boats smaller than 22' but with enough rm to be self-righting, but many are not.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 10-27-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Liberty Landing
Posts: 665
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
peterchech is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

On my recent Block Island trip, we were 30 miles from shore when we lost all instruments, including chartplotter and AP. Turns out a leaky stanchion post shorted the entire system. We were able to re-wire at port and fix it, and we had a handheld GPS and magnetic compass to guide us back, but relying on anything electrical on a boat seems like a bad idea especially if you need electric winches just to take the sails down.

In-mast furling mains, which seem to be popular on bigger production boats now, scare the crap out of me. I have only been sailing a few years, but have had the need to drop sail NOW enough times to know how important it can be, especially coastally where there is a risk of running aground. It's hard enough to unjam a furling jib, I can only imagine a main where the sail is inside the mast.

That said, I guess enough people are out there sailing across oceans with electric winches and furling mains that they can't be so bad right?
nolatom likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing - America's Cup sailing suspended for safety review NewsReader News Feeds 1 05-19-2013 08:22 PM
can sailing guarantee my safety? package81 General Discussion (sailing related) 72 01-10-2012 03:00 AM
Questions for potential first time charter (Safety and Boat Size) Kmkennedy14 Chartering 5 09-30-2011 04:58 PM
Sailing Safety MikeGC General Discussion (sailing related) 20 07-24-2008 06:05 PM
Kids/Sailing/Safety NauticalFishwife General Discussion (sailing related) 21 12-14-2007 11:28 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:34 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012