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  #201  
Old 11-05-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
The other 2 are the SE Cape of Tasmania, and SW Cape on Stewart Island, southernmost main island of NZ...

Some Great Cape circumnavigations might bypass the first by passing thru the Bass Strait N of Tasmania instead, or the second by going via the Cook Strait between the N and S Islands of NZ...

Jessica Watson, for example, bypassed both the SE and SW Capes on her trip... I believe all of the RTW record attempts have been made running south of all 5, though I do seem to recall that some of the boats in The Race in 2000 may have run thru the Cook Strait, perhaps to have made a pit stop in Wellington for repairs...
Jon,
Correction.
Jessica Watson only missed West Cape (Stewart Island, NZ):

Also take a look at the boat she used, S&S 34. Now if you were to send your 16 year old daughter on a non stop circumnavigation via 4 great capes, what is the safest boat you could choose?
The Voyage Wall Chart
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  #202  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, that is hard to know I mean what kind of boat made more passages and that dos not mean it is the better boat for the job.

Regarding records I know one that will interest you: The smaller boat to have circumnavigated non stop: A slightly modified mini class racer, a very light boat with 21ft. A very fast boat for its size.
Typically a mini class racer weights about 650kg, however this one was reinforced and was therefore heavier some hundreds of kgs. It had also to carry all the food and provisions needed for the voyage and that would amount also to more some hundreds of kgs.

It is also the smallest boat to have circumnavigated by the three capes. The boat did not have an engine, but then, it sailed very well.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
Please post a link to more information on the RTW mini trip if you have. Always curious why someone did not try a single hand RTW with such a boat- I guess they did. Interested as I know someone that races the mini and is planning a non stop RTW trip, but his boat of choice is an S&S 34. Mini does seem like a much faster way to go.
Regards
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  #203  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding Joe Sanders accomplishment with the small and old S&S 34 Bob Williams, the Chairman of Antarctica Cup Management and the Antarctica Cup Ocean Race, says:

"What Jon achieved during his double circumnavigation in 1981/82 was truly remarkable, given the technology available at the time and size of his yacht.

During that double circumnavigation with the S&S 34 he suffered a 180-degree knockdown and has very lucky in not breaking the mast, a thing that occur most of the times when a sailboat is rolled.

The three times non stop circumnavigation was made on a 47ft boat (not a 40ft boat) a bigger more modern, safer and faster fin keel boat that he could perfectly manage alone during three years. Here it is his 47fter:







PS: After all Sanders broke the mast of the S&S 34 when he was rolled. He managed to jury rig the boat with a mast with half the height and complete that way is second circumnavigation.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
As far as I know, Jon Sanders has never broken a mast on any boat he has ever stepped foot on- this includes many boats he has raced and delivered over the last 50 years. He did not break a mast on any boat he has circummnavigated on. Your are right he has done many 180 degree knock downs- but never broke a mast doing so. An example of the safety of the boats he sails.

Please correct your self. Jon Sanders never had to jury rig the S&S 34 he did his double non stop circummnavigation.

Please get a copy and read this book before you comment on his double RTW record breaking trip:
Lone Sailor: Jon Sanders, Sir Charles Court: 9780867780208: Amazon.com: Books Lone Sailor: Jon Sanders, Sir Charles Court: 9780867780208: Amazon.com: Books



Now let's talk about his triple RTW non stop on the 47 footer. You will need this book to fully discuss:
Sanders Sextant, Sea and Solitude: Amazon.it: Hugh Schmitt: Libri in altre lingue Sanders Sextant, Sea and Solitude: Amazon.it: Hugh Schmitt: Libri in altre lingue



Now if you go to page #135, you will read Jon had problems with the 47 footer. He states when ever going to windward in strong winds, somthing like 40 to 50 knots, the boat would nose dive. He ended up having to hove to in those conditions. Jon attributed the nose diving to having the mast and keel to far forward and also having water tanks forward on the boat. This made the boat have a heavy bow. So this boat is not the perfect boat as you make it out to be. Maybe that is why it is in a museum and one of a kind. It did make the trip however, so we do need to credit it.

Jon Sanders route on the S&S 34 took him below all the 5 great capes and all the way to England (2 times).

From Wikipedia:

"Jon Sanders was the first man to circumnavigate Antarctica, circling the continent twice in 1981 – 1982. For this accomplishment, Gate 17 of the new Antarctica Cup Racetrack has been named after him, with sector 17 named after the S&S 34 monohull Perie Banou, the yacht he had used during the circumnavigation.[2] Sanders Gate is positioned mid-way round the Indian Ocean zone; the gate is close to where Sanders suffered a 180-degree knockdown. During the voyage, he passed south of the three great capes: Horn, Good Hope and Leeuwin, before rounding Cape Horn a second time. He turned north to Plymouth, UK and returning south around Good Hope and returning to Fremantle.[3]

This voyage was recognised in the Guinness Book of Records through the following records:

The first single-handed sailor to remain continuously at sea twice around the world
First single-handed sailor to round the five southern most Capes twice on one voyage
First single-handed sailor to round the five southern most Capes twice
Longest distance continuously sailed by any yacht: 48,510 miles (78,070 km).
Longest period alone at sea during a continuous voyage: 419 days: 22 hours: 10 minutes"


Paulo, please do some reading before posting more false information.

Regards
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  #204  
Old 11-05-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Windlasses are only made to lift the anchor and its chain, not for breaking the anchor free. I found this out once while I was trying to help a skipper free his 50 new yacht. I swam his anchor out so I could use the manual windlass to winch his boat off the sand bar- well I cranked on that windlass until somthing stripped.
We have never used our windlass to break the anchor free. Not even once. We bring the boat up to it so the chain is straight down. I have a chain stopper to hold it tight, NOT the windlass. I then normally tighten up manually and use the wave action or my weight to dip the bow and break it free. Only time I had much trouble was after sitting out a hurricane. The anchor was DEEP! AND into the bottom. But I was happy about it that time.

Was just talking Jill reminded me of the time we had to depart a open road stead in the Pacific we had anchored in. She was saying how gad she was that we didn't have to resort to manual means as the sea was starting to build a lot.

Greg
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  #205  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Agree with above -never use the windlass to break free. Fortunate that we get to anchor in mud most often. Further agree wave action is usually sufficient. Always remember to use snuffers as never want to pull the windlass out of the deck. Sorry if I gave that misperception.
Sure wish this thread got back to Greg's apparent original intent- what size is best/safest for use by average cruising families and couples doing coastal, occasional passages like New England to US/BVIs and rare voyages like to Azores? At what size does size becomes a hindrance on a day to day basis?
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  #206  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Jon,
Correction.
Jessica Watson only missed West Cape (Stewart Island, NZ):
Thanks, I was recalling that she had experienced the worst weather on her trip in the vicinity of the Bass Strait, and had mistakenly presumed she passed N of Tasmania...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Also take a look at the boat she used, S&S 34. Now if you were to send your 16 year old daughter on a non stop circumnavigation via 4 great capes, what is the safest boat you could choose?
No question, the S&S 34 is a great boat in that size range... But, I think it's a bit silly to suggest that it, or any other particular boat, is unquestionably 'safer' than any other - there are simply way too many variables...

A couple of comparable boats off the top of my head, would be the Contessa 32, and the Camper-Nicholson 35... I'd probably favor the latter, it would be a much drier boat, and probably the best build quality of all 3... The C-N 35 would appear to be the least vulnerable to being pooped, and has a deeper, more secure cockpit, as well...

But if I did have a young daughter, and I was gonna let her take off around the world in a production boat, it would definitely be modified to have the vee-berth ripped out, and replaced with a collision bulkhead and watertight door :-)

NICHOLSON 35-1 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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  #207  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Paulo,
Please post a link to more information on the RTW mini trip if you have. Always curious why someone did not try a single hand RTW with such a boat- I guess they did. Interested as I know someone that races the mini and is planning a non stop RTW trip, but his boat of choice is an S&S 34. Mini does seem like a much faster way to go.
Regards
I'm guessing Paulo is referring to Alessandro de Benedetto's truly epic voyage:

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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
But if I did have a young daughter, and I was gonna let her take off around the world in a production boat, it would definitely be modified to have the vee-berth ripped out, and replaced with a collision bulkhead and watertight door :-)
Jessicas boat did have the forward part of boat foam filled and sealed to act as collision compartment.
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  #209  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Paulo,
...Jon Sanders ... did not break a mast on any boat he has circummnavigated on. Your are right he has done many 180 degree knock downs- but never broke a mast doing so. An example of the safety of the boats he sails.

Please correct your self. Jon Sanders never had to jury rig the S&S 34 he did his double non stop circummnavigation.

...
Yes you are right. That was another famous circumnavigator that broke the mast when rolled and end up its circumnavigation under Jury-Rig.

The S&S 34 boat was rolled 180º but he Sanders had a lot of luck and the mast stayed in on piece. Masts broke almost always on a 180º roll. It has not to do with the boat but with the masts. Other S&S 34 had broke the mast on less than a roll.

A roll is a very dangerous situation and even if the mast remains intact a lot of wrong things can happen, if we there is not a lot of luck. Take a look:



His bigger boat, used for the triple circumnavigation, notwithstanding have been caught in a huge storm and knock down several times, always resisted to be rolled. Never passed 110º and that on the worst knock down.

About Jon Sanders' Triple Circumnavigation of the World

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sorry but I do not agree.





As Jeff as said it is complicated. It has to do with RM but also with dynamic stability. RM has to do with weight and GZ (the arm). Bigger boats have a bigger GZ so they have an advantage and they are also bigger proportionally to the wave size, that's another advantage in what regards dynamic stability.

An older and heavier small design can partially compensate the disadvantage to a bigger modern design because the weight contributes to the RM and this one to stability, but modern designs with much lower CG (that contributes to a bigger arm as well as the bigger beam) end up to have a better overall stability.

Note that between two boats with the same stability (the same area under the RM curve), one bigger and lighter, the other smaller and heavier the lighter one will recover much more quickly from a knock down assuming they have similar RM at 90º. The force that is pulling the boat up is the same, but the force needed to put an heavy boat back in its feet is mutch more than the one needed to right a much lighter one

That is just an important factor, there are much more about it but generally we can say that a bigger boat is safer and certainly it is if it is the same type of boat. I am assuming well designed and built boats as are most of the boats built today.

Regarding the case you have pointed out I have no doubt that a Pogo 12.50 is much more seaworthy than the old Vertue by a big margin even if the displacement is not very different.

Regards

Paulo
But interestingly, the Pogo is crewed by at least four people, according to the video. Is it easily manageable by a cruising couple? Unless the answer is yes (and maybe it is), it is not a "safer" boat for a short-handed crew.
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