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  #21  
Old 10-27-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

I've commonly put 80,000 miles on an auto over 4 years. I would estimate that is about 1,600 hours of use. Typically no maintenance or failures other than wear items.

Pick any measure you like, miles, years or hours of use. There's no sailboat system in any size boat that has that kind of reliability, even brand new.
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Old 10-27-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I've commonly put 80,000 miles on an auto over 4 years. I would estimate that is about 1,600 hours of use. Typically no maintenance or failures other than wear items.
Hmmm...80Kmiles in 1600 hours? That's 50 mph! Nobody drives like that. No wonder your car is so reliable. Now if you RACED your car like you do your boat every time you see a sloop edging up on you...
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I've commonly put 80,000 miles on an auto over 4 years. I would estimate that is about 1,600 hours of use. Typically no maintenance or failures other than wear items.

Pick any measure you like, miles, years or hours of use. There's no sailboat system in any size boat that has that kind of reliability, even brand new.
I don't know about that. Of course you make normal maintenance of your car, according the maintenance schedule.

On My last boat, a Bavaria 36, I had done in 6 years 2200 hours with the engine (no maintenance except the scheduled one). To those 2200 engine hours would correspond about more half sailing time, so we are talking about 3300 hours for a plotter and GPS system, for a furler and an automatic reefing system. Also a radar even if not many times used. Everything worked spotless and it seems that 5 years later everything is still working with no problem.

Why this would be different with an electric winch or any other system? The one on my boat has 7 years and it was used already by me on about 900 hours of sailing (on two years). I don't know how many sailing hours had made the previous owner in 5 years of use but it should not be less than what I have done. No problem at all, no maintenance except cleaning and lub.

I don't understand why you say that the systems in a boat are less reliable than in a car.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
Hmmm...80Kmiles in 1600 hours? That's 50 mph! Nobody drives like that.
I just assumed an average between highway and local driving.

Quote:
Now if you RACED your car like you do your boat every time you see a sloop edging up on you...
That may be a good point. Definitely press the boat harder.
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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.....I don't understand why you say that the systems in a boat are less reliable than in a car.....
Paolo, I'm not going to argue this to death, it's just my experience that I'm sharing. I've never had a season without some sort of unanticipated failure of something. I'm not strictly referring to the motor or the winches or electronics or anything in particular. It's always something. Every year. For nearly 40. Never been the case with an auto.

In the past 24 months, I've had the wind tranducer fail twice and needed a new Volvo turbo charger and intercooler. I'm also randomly thinking of fresh water hose splits, failed switches, a bad fresh water pump...... I think I'm going to stop thinking about it.
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I've commonly put 80,000 miles on an auto over 4 years. I would estimate that is about 1,600 hours of use. Typically no maintenance or failures other than wear items.
Pick any measure you like, miles, years or hours of use. There's no sailboat system in any size boat that has that kind of reliability, even brand new.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on "There's no sailboat system in any size boat that has that kind of reliability". I believe my cable steering system has many times the 1600 hours on it and the autopilot has at least that. The Raymarine wind speed and angle system certainly has many, many times 1600 hours on it (21,000+), as it's on 24/7/365. Of these three systems, two do not even need periodic maintenance.
There are probably other systems that have at least 1600 hours on them without failures, like the fresh water pump, refer and a/c seawater pumps (magnetic drive) and even the sump pump, but I can't really count hours on them. I have run the Little Giant seawater circulation pumps on a/c units for 3 years, when I lived dockside in Fla and SC without problems 24/7/300 or so days a year, without any maintenance at all.
Considering that all our boat equipment operates in the salt water environment it does, it is actually amazing how long some systems do function without problems.
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Paolo, I'm not going to argue this to death, it's just my experience that I'm sharing. I've never had a season without some sort of unanticipated failure of something. I'm not strictly referring to the motor or the winches or electronics or anything in particular. It's always something. Every year. For nearly 40. Never been the case with an auto.

In the past 24 months, I've had the wind tranducer fail twice and needed a new Volvo turbo charger and intercooler. I'm also randomly thinking of fresh water hose splits, failed switches, a bad fresh water pump...... I think I'm going to stop thinking about it.
I don't know what these people are talking about, marine systems are reliable? Not my experience nor that of anyone i know or race with.

Then again i have never owned a bavaria swan etc, maybe the 1% have their own super-high end systems that are reliable unlike everything else out there?
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size






I did the first refit after 40 years and after 3 more years the only failure has been the plastic key switch i used and even that was a 10 minute inconvenience




And its not like we are afraid to get the wet
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Folks, I'm not saying that nothing will last 1600 hours. Goodness, people hear what they want to hear. I'm saying that in 1600 hours in an automobile, its very common to have nothing go wrong. In 1600 hours on a sailboat, it's common to have something go wrong.

If you disagree, you're one lucky sailor. I don't know many that make it a single season without something going wrong.
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Jon, do you use the buttons on your TV? Anybody use them? No, everybody uses a remote control. The buttons are there as an emergency back up.

That's the same with those controls, they are remotely used from any part of the boat. Those big boats will almost be on autopilot all the time and will be steered from somewhere else. That plotter on the wheel is only a back up, the third one. The main plotter is on the nav. station and the one more used in navigation it will be the one under the big dodger that on the photos is down. They also offer an hard dodger but the removable one is almost as big and offer already a big protection.

On foul or cold weather, depending from the situation and where the boat is sailing, the boat will be sailed from the interior or from the protection of that big dodger, using the nav station there and a remote control for everything, from the rudder to the sails.



Regards

Paulo
Well, I know plenty of people today sail that way, but trust me... If I'm coming into a place like Charleston or Fernandina on a dirty night, I'm gonna be standing at the helm... :-)

I've learned plenty of things in my years of delivering a wide variety of boats. But if there's one thing that stands above the rest, and has informed the choices that have informed the outfitting of my own little tub, is that there can be a real virtue in simplicity... Perhaps my experience is unique, but it's definitely been the case that the more complex the boat and its systems, the greater the likelihood I'll experience some sort of 'problem' during the trip...

Two things I've become particularly wary of, are powered sailhandling systems, and remote control devices... Reliance on such devices can be a great way to break gear, or do damage to the boat. The real risk to such implements is not so much that they might not START working, but that they may not STOP... The horrific accident that occurred on an Amel 53 a few years ago in Antigua while a woman was hoisting her husband up the mast using an electric cockpit winch is a prime example... And, the increasing use of wireless engine controllers on larger motoryachts while docking scares the hell out of me, I know of more than one example where they've failed or gone haywire, resulting in major damage to boats...

I've spent a lot of time running Trintellas over the years... Marvelous boats, obviously of extremely high quality, but incredibly complex... Aboard the 50 that I've sailed the most, the joke was always that there was NEVER a moment in time, where everything on the boat worked at once :-)

While I've come to think pretty highly of the Leisure-Furl system for larger yachts, they've definitely had some teething problems since their inception, and I still feel going with the internally-driven motorized system is a mistake... Better to go with simply running the halyard and mandrell/downhaul to cockpit winches, instead... Here's my favorite example...

We were running a 50 south in December about 5 years ago, the owner was gonna do the Pineapple Cup (formerly the Miami-Montego Bay Race)... The motor for the L-F is located near the end of the boom... We're talking an all carbon rig here, close to 80', probably costing close to $100K - definitely, 'Top of the Line' in every respect, no expense spared...

We had a great trip down to around Cape Canaveral, when the breeze finally came up pretty hard out of the E, then SE... It was a VERY wet ride from there on, lots of spray, some of it even making it to the end of the boom :-)

We get into Port Everglades, and I head up to lower the main, and push the button... Nothing happens... No biggie, we lower it manually, and head into Bahia Mar...

Now, the motor for this thing is not the sort of DC motor we can take into an alternator shop in Lauderdale to get fixed... It's a highly speciallized one of European manufacture, a replacement/spare costs about $6K, and the ONLY authorized service center at the time was in the Netherlands... So, after spending the entire morning removing the mainsail - which probably weighs 250 lbs - and the motor itself (50-60 lbs), we pack it up to ship via Fed Ex to Amsterdam ( I could probably cruise for most of the winter in the Bahamas for what that alone cost)

They get it back just in time for the race, mad scramble to install it prior to departure...

A front comes thru the night before, so at the start it's blowing 20-25 from the NW, and the Gulf Stream is gonna be pretty sporty...

About 40 minutes into the race, getting into the Stream, they fall hard off the back of wave, and dip the end of the boom, immersing the motor... Uh-oh...

They take in a bit of a reef, seems OK... But about an hour later, when they decide to reef just a tad more, nothing... the newly rebuilt motor is fried, they got all of about 25 miles into an 800+ mile race out of it...

Needless to say, the former owner of this boat would get a good chuckle out of the assertion that his $1.4 million sailing yacht was as reliable as his Mercedes... :-)
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