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  #31  
Old 10-27-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Jon, I was not talking about race boats. Fact is that sailors here, I mean old retired couples are buying +50ft sailboats. They can only manage those boats because they have a lot of help from electric and hydraulic systems and they are buying the boats because they are reliable and they know it.

I am talking about mass production boats. Compared to cars the boat you were talking about would be a expensive modified high tech sports car, not a Mercedes and those are know to be fun but highly unreliable. A Mercedes would be that Halberg-Rassy that I had posted about

I bet that Trintella has more than 10 years. Am I wrong?

Regards

Paulo
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  #32  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Can you really compare a car to a boat? My car doesn't have water tanks and hydraulic system, a bathroom, kitchen, complex navigation system, electrical system with numerous internal and external lights, sails and sail handling equipment and so on. Boat equipment might be reliable, but there is so much of it on a boat that something is always needing attention.
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  #33  
Old 10-27-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
OK then. So there's no way, a young Japanese man could have sailed from Japan to San Francisco on a 19 foot boat? Hum.....
If you say so.
Or no way to cross the Pacific and then the Indian ocean in an 18 foot open boat like Webb Chiles did...
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  #34  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by copacabana View Post
Can you really compare a car to a boat? My car doesn't have water tanks and hydraulic system, a bathroom, kitchen, complex navigation system, electrical system with numerous internal and external lights, sails and sail handling equipment and so on. Boat equipment might be reliable, but there is so much of it on a boat that something is always needing attention.
We were only talking about the boat as a vehicle and about the components related with that, or at least I was. On that regard the car is much more complex than a boat even considering the new ones with electric winches and computer assisted bow thrusters.

Regards

Paulo
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  #35  
Old 10-28-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

HMMMMMM

I think I have had only one car/truck with an auto that lasted more than 50K miles at an ave of 25mph in speed. Assuming my current truck with its odometer and hr meter are on par with previous rigs. That auto is the one in my current truck. All others have yet to go over 150K. Then again, most do not drive slow up steep grades etc. so anyway.

ANYTHING can break sooner than expected depending upon a lot of "what if's" if you will. Most of the breaks on a boat, truck, not sure what a car is?!?! but if some type of motorized vehicle, then things break when you overstress them in some way shape or form. If you overstress a lot, then things break sooner than later. City driving at higher gvwr's than one normally expect, things break! Alternators every 50-60K miles, starters in the same range.......pretty normal for my useage in trucks. Altho the last couple have been getting better mileage/hours if you will.

My boat on the other hand, yeah things have broken, need to be repaired, but name ANY type of vehicle, be it a boat or car that is 25+ yrs old, and something will be breaking!

Marty
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  #36  
Old 10-28-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

If you have one simple system, the reliability is high, add another in line system and the reliability of the whole goes down. Add another simple system and once more, it drops.

Now take a complex system and add that into the string and things start to get sketchy, don't they?

Once more to the premise that a smaller, simpler boat can be a lot safer than a larger complex boat.

If you (and by you I am talking to the weakest member of the crew) can't handle the boat in BAD weather, by yourself, (if we are talking about a cruising couple) without electrics, HOW SAFE IS THAT BOAT?

Don't forget that when the car/truck breaks down, you pull off the side of the road and call AAA. Try that 500 miles “out there”!

Greg
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  #37  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Jon, I was not talking about race boats. Fact is that sailors here, I mean old retired couples are buying +50ft sailboats. They can only manage those boats because they have a lot of help from electric and hydraulic systems and they are buying the boats because they are reliable and they know it.
The Trintellas are not what I would consider Race Boats, in fact the 47 was chosen as Best Luxury Cruiser by CRUISING WORLD in 1998...






One of the features that wowed the crowd at the Annapolis Boat Show that year, was the hydraulic stern garage transom door, similar to this one on a 55: (Such arrangements have since become quite commonplace, of course... But back then, it generated plenty of Oohs and Ahhhs )





Another one of my favorite examples of the vaunted 'reliability' of such boats...

First time I took that 47 south for the owner, I arrive in Key West with a day to spare to catch a flight home for Christmas... After getting the boat secured in her slip at the Galleon Marina, I push the button to activate the transom door, to access the garage where shore power cords, and all the cleaning supplies are stowed...

Nothing happens...

Turns out all the mechanics of this system - electrical motors and hydraulic pumps - are contained within the garage, to which there is no access whatsoever from the deck level, or through the seat lockers - and no mechanical backup provision for releasing the door...

When the owner called the factory with this revelation, he said there was a lengthy 'pause' on the other end of the line :-)

I had to leave the boat as it was, though fortunately was able to transfer all of the frozen/refrigerated food still aboard to the owner's motor yacht in the adjacent slip... Service people were eventually able to pry open the transom door, doing considerable damage in the process, and requiring a very expensive repair and Awlgrip job to the transom...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I bet that Trintella has more than 10 years. Am I wrong?
The 50 was about 2 years old at the time of the failure I described of the Leisure-Furl...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 10-28-2013 at 02:43 AM.
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  #38  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
Another one of my favorite examples of the vaunted 'reliability' of such boats...

First time I took that 47 south for the owner, I arrive in Key West with a day to spare to catch a flight home for Christmas... After getting the boat secured in her slip at the Galleon Marina, I push the button to activate the transom door, to access the garage where shore power cords, and all the cleaning supplies are stowed...

Nothing happens...

Turns out all the mechanics of this system - electrical motors and hydraulic pumps - are contained within the garage, to which there is no access whatsoever from the deck level, or through the seat lockers - and no mechanical backup provision for releasing the door...

When the owner called the factory with this revelation, he said there was a lengthy 'pause' on the other end of the line :-)

I had to leave the boat as it was, though fortunately was able to transfer all of the frozen/refrigerated food still aboard to the owner's motor yacht in the adjacent slip... Service people were eventually able to pry open the transom door, doing considerable damage in the process, and requiring a very expensive repair and Awlgrip job to the transom...

l...
That's just bad design.

Regarding the reliability of the Trintella, probably that's why they went bankrupt while HR continues to grow.

Look I am not saying that a coach is not more reliable than a car or that if you manage to keep it simple you will get more reliability. What I am saying is that some systems made life easy for sailors and allow them to sail faster and safer boats, bigger boats. They are an advantage not a disadvantage.

A genoa furling system is less reliable that an old clip on sail on stay. Even if not frequent they can jam and broke. The same thing with an anchor winch. Or an electric autopilot. Nobody questions today the advantages they bring over the inconvenients.

That's the kind of thing I am saying. Regarding boats over 40ft I would say the electric winches and furlers have reached the same kind of acceptance on the market. They have many advantages and a great reliability allowing older people to keep sailing and a smaller crew. Wireless commands for the winches (anchor and sail ones) and to the auto pilot have become increasingly popular and reliable. They have been developed on the solo racing circuit and have become a big asset there as they are for cruising.

All these systems can be operated manually as a back up, so there is not a difference regarding them to be automatic in what regards reliability, only advantages. The same with lateral thrusters. If you have a malfunction you can still operate the boat has if they were not there.

Again, a coach is more reliable than a car and a car hugely more complex but you can believe it that with time a sailboat will be more like a car and less like a coach in what regards simplicity and reliability just because a car is a lot more comfortable than a coach and faster (bigger boats being sailed by couples).

Regards

Paulo
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  #39  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I know plenty of people today sail that way, but trust me... If I'm coming into a place like Charleston or Fernandina on a dirty night, I'm gonna be standing at the helm... :-)

I've learned plenty of things in my years of delivering a wide variety of boats. But if there's one thing that stands above the rest, and has informed the choices that have informed the outfitting of my own little tub, is that there can be a real virtue in simplicity... Perhaps my experience is unique, but it's definitely been the case that the more complex the boat and its systems, the greater the likelihood I'll experience some sort of 'problem' during the trip...

Two things I've become particularly wary of, are powered sailhandling systems, and remote control devices... Reliance on such devices can be a great way to break gear, or do damage to the boat. The real risk to such implements is not so much that they might not START working, but that they may not STOP... The horrific accident that occurred on an Amel 53 a few years ago in Antigua while a woman was hoisting her husband up the mast using an electric cockpit winch is a prime example... And, the increasing use of wireless engine controllers on larger motoryachts while docking scares the hell out of me, I know of more than one example where they've failed or gone haywire, resulting in major damage to boats...

I've spent a lot of time running Trintellas over the years... Marvelous boats, obviously of extremely high quality, but incredibly complex... Aboard the 50 that I've sailed the most, the joke was always that there was NEVER a moment in time, where everything on the boat worked at once :-)

While I've come to think pretty highly of the Leisure-Furl system for larger yachts, they've definitely had some teething problems since their inception, and I still feel going with the internally-driven motorized system is a mistake... Better to go with simply running the halyard and mandrell/downhaul to cockpit winches, instead... Here's my favorite example...

We were running a 50 south in December about 5 years ago, the owner was gonna do the Pineapple Cup (formerly the Miami-Montego Bay Race)... The motor for the L-F is located near the end of the boom... We're talking an all carbon rig here, close to 80', probably costing close to $100K - definitely, 'Top of the Line' in every respect, no expense spared...

We had a great trip down to around Cape Canaveral, when the breeze finally came up pretty hard out of the E, then SE... It was a VERY wet ride from there on, lots of spray, some of it even making it to the end of the boom :-)

We get into Port Everglades, and I head up to lower the main, and push the button... Nothing happens... No biggie, we lower it manually, and head into Bahia Mar...

Now, the motor for this thing is not the sort of DC motor we can take into an alternator shop in Lauderdale to get fixed... It's a highly speciallized one of European manufacture, a replacement/spare costs about $6K, and the ONLY authorized service center at the time was in the Netherlands... So, after spending the entire morning removing the mainsail - which probably weighs 250 lbs - and the motor itself (50-60 lbs), we pack it up to ship via Fed Ex to Amsterdam ( I could probably cruise for most of the winter in the Bahamas for what that alone cost)

They get it back just in time for the race, mad scramble to install it prior to departure...

A front comes thru the night before, so at the start it's blowing 20-25 from the NW, and the Gulf Stream is gonna be pretty sporty...

About 40 minutes into the race, getting into the Stream, they fall hard off the back of wave, and dip the end of the boom, immersing the motor... Uh-oh...

They take in a bit of a reef, seems OK... But about an hour later, when they decide to reef just a tad more, nothing... the newly rebuilt motor is fried, they got all of about 25 miles into an 800+ mile race out of it...

Needless to say, the former owner of this boat would get a good chuckle out of the assertion that his $1.4 million sailing yacht was as reliable as his Mercedes... :-)
It is amazing to me that an electric motor would be mounted at the end of the boom... First the weight and stress on the gooseneck that it must cause, ie in an accidental crash jibe. And second, how could it not be anticipated that the boom will drag in the water in a broach or rough water? Am I missing something?

Reminds me of the 2 near new raymarine autopilots I have, st1000 and a wheel pilot on my dad's boat. The poor mechanical design from a common sense point of view is astounding...
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Anyway, I'm not sure I would be comfortable handling a 55' sloop by myself relying on electric winches etc. But generally bigger has to be better for ocean sailing to a point. I find my fathers 32' sloop a handful when things go awry, compared to the 25 and 26 footers I usually sail on. The genny is work to tack. The masthead kite especially can load up, and the spin/whisker pole is quite heavy. There are ways to improve this boat for short handing, but dealing with a bigger genoa than this would be more than I would want to do. It's an argument for frac rigs, or cutter or ketch rigs, for sure...

That said, the difference in motion that a few feet of loa can provide is remarkable...

And bigger boats tend to have dodgers etc, and due to higher freeboard are generally drier to boot.

A mini 650 meets all the ISAF cat 2 safety requirements, and so long as the keel stays on it would be hard to find a safer ocean boat. A well built self-righting monohull that won't down flood in a broach, has up to date rigging etc, and the proper sail selection will be seaworthy almost regardless of size with a good skipper at the helm. Floating cork principal, gives me supreme confidence that no matter how bad I mess up out in open water, the most likely worst case scenario is I float on my side until I can release the sheet or halyard causing the problems. Racing teaches u that lesson well.

That said, being in a seaworthy floating cork isn't very comfortable and it takes a special kind of person to single hand a mini 650 transat :-)
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