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  #61  
Old 10-29-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
I’d like to pick your brain on what worked for you, what would have been a neat thing and what was a waste of storage space.

For example, awnings, dodgers and biminis. We currently have a dodger and a “cruiser awning” that zips into the dodger and ties into the back stay. I’m thinking of getting a framed dodger that would collapse onto the back stay and a zippered transitional piece. Our canvas work is “royal blue”, your thoughts? Also, what do you think of the cruiser curtains? I noticed that you had a big curved awning that went over the boom. Should we make an awning to fit over the forepeak? Where and how did you store all the awnings? Fire away.
Should we start a new thread?
Something like Sea of Cortez bound?
Start it and I will follow and post. Most likely you will also get more info than just us can provide.

Greg
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  #62  
Old 10-29-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

This Coast Guard rescue represents the problem of trying to sail a boat that is more than one can safely handle in extreme conditions. Looks like the crew could not even reduce sail as the loads on boats of this size become extreme at high wind speeds. Bigger not always safer.

The Coast Guard Channel: The Perfect Storm Rescues
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  #63  
Old 10-29-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Very nice video. Thanks for posting.

Greg
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  #64  
Old 10-29-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by Delezynski View Post
Very nice video. Thanks for posting.

Greg
Here is another, more info of the situation:
marine flower 2 - Bing Videos
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  #65  
Old 10-29-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
This Coast Guard rescue represents the problem of trying to sail a boat that is more than one can safely handle in extreme conditions. Looks like the crew could not even reduce sail as the loads on boats of this size become extreme at high wind speeds. Bigger not always safer.

The Coast Guard Channel: The Perfect Storm Rescues
You got it wrong Casey, there was nothing wrong with the boat and they say so on the video.



The boat was sailing with all that sail because it could handle and be stable with all that sail. On the movie you can see that the skipper reduces sail (between the beginning and the end of the movie). The crew was only one guy, the family could not help , two women that didn't know how to sail and a small child. They say the boat was his new baby and clearly he had not experience to sail alone that boat.

They say he was exhausted!!!! All he had to do was to close the boat put a floating anchor out and wait the storm to pass. Anyway for what I can see and the amount of sail the boat carried there was no need for that at that moment. The boat was sailing alright.

Clearly a terrified family that had thought that the sea was always a nice place and that had enough of bad weather (and the worst was yet to come) and wanted out.

Do you think they would be better or safer in a smaller boat, maybe a 27ft boat? That's plain crazy.

This was clearly a case where the boat could take a lot more than the crew.

Some buy a 50 or 60ft boat and think that the boat is so big that it will always be comfortable or that the boat can take any sea and even if it is obvious that a big boat will be safer than a much smaller one, there is conditions that can be dangerous even for a much bigger boat than that one.

The big and important question is what the hell was doing that boat there?

They certainly had information about the weather. That is the capital error and the one that shows the inexperience of that skipper, more than the fact the had abandoned a perfectly sound boat just because he was tired.

Why he did not put the family safe and stayed on that boat on a floating anchor? Surely he had one and if not, well he is the one to blame, not the boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-29-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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  #66  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You got it wrong Casey, there was nothing wrong with the boat and they say so on the video.



The boat was sailing with all that sail because it could handle and be stable with all that sail. On the movie you can see that the skipper reduces sail (between the beginning and the end of the movie). The crew was only one guy, the family could not help , two women that didn't know how to sail and a small child. They say the boat was his new baby and clearly he had not experience to sail alone that boat.

They say he was exhausted!!!! All he had to do was to close the boat put a floating anchor out and wait the storm to pass. Anyway for what I can see and the amount of sail the boat carried there was no need for that at that moment. The boat was sailing alright.

Clearly a terrified family that had thought that the sea was always a nice place and that had enough of bad weather (and the worst was yet to come) and wanted out.

Do you think they would be better or safer in a smaller boat, maybe a 27ft boat? That's plain crazy.

This was clearly a case where the boat could take a lot more than the crew.

Some buy a 50 or 60ft boat and think that the boat is so big that it will always be comfortable or that the boat can take any sea and even if it is obvious that a big boat will be safer than a much smaller one, there is conditions that can be dangerous even for a much bigger boat than that one.

The big and important question is what the hell was doing that boat there?

They certainly had information about the weather. That is the capital error and the one that shows the inexperience of that skipper, more than the fact the had abandoned a perfectly sound boat just because he was tired.

Why he did not put the family safe and stayed on that boat on a floating anchor? Surely he had one and if not, well he is the one to blame, not the boat.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
Did I ever say anything was wrong with the boat? No. I said it looked like the crew could not reduce sail. This may have been caused by extreme loads on the sails, due to high winds. Or maybe the boat was broken- we don't have all the information. As I am sure you know, the larger the boat, the more extreme the loads are- then you either need mechanical/electrical advantage or a big strong crew. A failure of your advantage could lead to disaster.

In any case, looks like you got it wrong Paulo. I think Capt Vittone has more experience than you. The below is from Capt Vittone- you may notice he was the rescue swimmer in the CG Marine Flower II video I previously posted.:

Hurricane Survival ? No Place for Absolutes | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News

Hurricane Survival – No Place for Absolutes.By Mario Vittone On October 29, 2012
...By Mario Vittone

"The owner of Marine Flower II abandoned his perfectly good sailboat in November of 1994. It is exactly what he should have done. His boat wasn’t sinking, but after two days fighting seasickness and fatigue, his wife and daughter could only lay below with his infant son. In a matter of hours, he would have to single-hand his 64-foot ketch through a hurricane. I don’t think he would have made it. If he hadn’t called for rescue when he did, the search and rescue would have likely been just a search. Stepping down into the ocean was a very good idea. If you’re thinking you would have done differently, then you are exactly the kind of boater the Coast Guard often looks for, but never finds."
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  #67  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The boat was sailing with all that sail because it could handle and be stable with all that sail. On the movie you can see that the skipper reduces sail (between the beginning and the end of the movie). The crew was only one guy, the family could not help , two women that didn't know how to sail and a small child. They say the boat was his new baby and clearly he had not experience to sail alone that boat.

They say he was exhausted!!!! All he had to do was to close the boat put a floating anchor out and wait the storm to pass. Anyway for what I can see and the amount of sail the boat carried there was no need for that at that moment. The boat was sailing alright.

Clearly a terrified family that had thought that the sea was always a nice place and that had enough of bad weather (and the worst was yet to come) and wanted out.

Do you think they would be better or safer in a smaller boat, maybe a 27ft boat? That's plain crazy.

This was clearly a case where the boat could take a lot more than the crew.

Some buy a 50 or 60ft boat and think that the boat is so big that it will always be comfortable or that the boat can take any sea and even if it is obvious that a big boat will be safer than a much smaller one, there is conditions that can be dangerous even for a much bigger boat than that one.

The big and important question is what the hell was doing that boat there?

They certainly had information about the weather. That is the capital error and the one that shows the inexperience of that skipper, more than the fact the had abandoned a perfectly sound boat just because he was tired.

Why he did not put the family safe and stayed on that boat on a floating anchor? Surely he had one and if not, well he is the one to blame, not the boat.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
I do not have all the facts on the Marine Flower II rescue, but I question why the sails were not taken down during the rescue. Surely it would be easier for the CG crew if all sails were down and the boat was lying a hull. Then the rescue swimmer may have been able to get to the boat with reduce effort. It looks like at the end of the vid, the main sheet is completely released so to depower the single main sail that is still up. Maybe somthing was jammed or skipper just to tired to try to bring down the sail- we just don't have all the facts. In all the CG rescues I have seen, no sails are hoisted on the sailboat during rescue.

In any case the CG did a spectacular job.
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  #68  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Do I really need to comment on this thread? Probably not
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  #69  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Paulo,
.....

In any case, looks like you got it wrong Paulo. I think Capt Vittone has more experience than you. The below is from Capt Vittone- you may notice he was the rescue swimmer in the CG Marine Flower II video I previously posted.:

Hurricane Survival ? No Place for Absolutes | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News

Hurricane Survival – No Place for Absolutes.By Mario Vittone On October 29, 2012
...By Mario Vittone

"The owner of Marine Flower II abandoned his perfectly good sailboat in November of 1994. It is exactly what he should have done. His boat wasn’t sinking, but after two days fighting seasickness and fatigue, his wife and daughter could only lay below with his infant son. In a matter of hours, he would have to single-hand his 64-foot ketch through a hurricane. I don’t think he would have made it. If he hadn’t called for rescue when he did, the search and rescue would have likely been just a search. Stepping down into the ocean was a very good idea. If you’re thinking you would have done differently, then you are exactly the kind of boater the Coast Guard often looks for, but never finds."
I don't understand what you mean

Captain Vitone was not the skypper of that boat!!!!???

What I have said regarding the skipper was: "The big and important question is what the hell was doing that boat there? They certainly had information about the weather. That is the capital error and the one that shows the inexperience of that skipper, more than the fact the had abandoned a perfectly sound boat just because he was tired.

And I certainly would have not the experience needed to sail a 60ft alone across the ocean, at least without a lot of practice with that type of boat and only if the boat was equipped for solo sailing, but I cannot see what that as to do with the inexperience of the skipper of that particular boat.

But the only meaningful point to this thread and the reason you have posted it here has to do with your assumption that a smaller boat would be safer on that situation than that 60ft or then it make no sense to have posted all this here.

So, do you really think they would be safer on that situation on a 30ft boat?


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-30-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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  #70  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
But the only meaningful point to this thread and the reason you have posted it here has to do with your assumption that a smaller boat would be safer on that situation than that 60ft or then it make no sense to have posted all this here.

So, do you really think they would be safer on that situation on a 30ft boat?


Regards

Paulo
So you have moved from asking if a 27 foot boat to asking if a 30 foot boat is safe?

I am not saying a 27 foot boat or a 60 foot boat is unsafe. Just saying any boat can be unsafe.

In any case, my understanding from reading many nautical design references is that generally boats over 40 feet will not capsize nearly as easily as somthing less than 40 feet. Assuming the boat is of a normal design (no water ballast and such hi-tech desings). Seems in storm conditions my main concern would be losing the mast and capsize.

The problem is that once boats hit say 40 feet and above, the loads get to the point where one really needs to be careful, especially in storm conditions- and this includes setting drouges and parachute anchors. So even though one may appear to be safer on a 40 foot and above size boat, in reality 35 feet may be a better number for maximum size.

Of course all of this is much dependent on the skipper training, ability, and physical condition, as well as the crews if one is not single handing. The other thing to remember, say it is you and you spouse double handing a 44 footer. One gets injured, can the other single hand the boat in a storm?

Last edited by casey1999; 10-30-2013 at 04:34 PM.
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