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  #71  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
...
The problem is that once boats hit say 40 feet and above, the loads get to the point where one really needs to be careful, especially in storm conditions- and this includes setting drouges and parachute anchors. So even though one may appear to be safer on a 40 foot and above size boat, in reality 35 feet may be a better number for maximum size.

Of course all of this is much dependent on the skipper training, ability, and physical condition, as well as the crews if one is not single handing. The other thing to remember, say it is you and you spouse double handing a 44 footer. One gets injured, can the other single hand the boat in a storm?
I don't agree with you that a 35ft to be safer than a 60ft boat assuming the boat is prepared to be solo sailed.

No, not a 44fter, I sail a 41ft boat. I can sail the boat alone even on a storm even if I will do everything not to sail the boat in a storm in first place.

On a storm my boat will have considerably more stability and RM than a similar typed 35ft boat.

Regarding my wife no, she would not be able to sail that boat in a storm or in perfect sailing conditions. She would not be able to sail a 35ft either.

She don't likes sailing and refuses to learn. She has the right to do so and I am happy that she likes to voyage and sail on the boat with me taking car of the sails.

You are mistaken in thinking that a smaller boat is always easier to sail then a bigger boat. It depends how the boat is rigged and on the weight of the boat. My boat is less heavy than most old 35fters and in a storm the amount of sail it needs to sail and make good speed is really minimum.

Even with as little as 15/16K of wind the amount of sail to go at 8K is small, with both main and genoa reefed. Off course I could go at double figure speeds downwind with full sail but then the boat would not be easy to sail one by a solo sailor, as it is with the reefed sails.

Regards

Paulo
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  #72  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

We may have found our newest version of an anchor argument. In the end, this is all a matter of personal preference and opinion, with just a little bit of data thrown in to make it irreconcilable.
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  #73  
Old 10-30-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't agree with you that a 35ft to be safer than a 60ft boat assuming the boat is prepared to be solo sailed.

No, not a 44fter, I sail a 41ft boat. I can sail the boat alone even on a storm even if I will do everything not to sail the boat in a storm in first place.

On a storm my boat will have considerably more stability and RM than a similar typed 35ft boat.

Regarding my wife no, she would not be able to sail that boat in a storm or in perfect sailing conditions. She would not be able to sail a 35ft either.

She don't likes sailing and refuses to learn. She has the right to do so and I am happy that she likes to voyage and sail on the boat with me taking car of the sails.

You are mistaken in thinking that a smaller boat is always easier to sail then a bigger boat. It depends how the boat is rigged and on the weight of the boat. My boat is less heavy than most old 35fters and in a storm the amount of sail it needs to sail and make good speed is really minimum.

Even with as little as 15/16K of wind the amount of sail to go at 8K is small, with both main and genoa reefed. Off course I could go at double figure speeds downwind with full sail but then the boat would not be easy to sail one by a solo sailor, as it is with the reefed sails.

Regards

Paulo
PCP,
I never made a blanket statement that said a 35 footer is safer than a 60 footer. Not sure where you get these crazy ideas. You would make a good news reporter as they do a great job at twisting and spinning a story.
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Old 10-31-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Of course, Mario Vittone is the rescue swimmer who saved the crew of the Marine Flower 2, and who in an interview called it his most dangerous rescue.

( Rescue Swimmers Have Special Strengths )
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  #75  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

The Marine Flower 2 is a Sundeer 64 ketch. They were designed as a couple boat and are rigged for sailing from the cockpit. They have probably completed more circumnavigations than any other boat their size, often only sailed by 2.

There was nothing wrong with the boat.

The owner/skipper was inexperienced, at least with this boat.

He should not have been there.

This link catalogs boats and mileage.
SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History
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  #76  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The Marine Flower 2 is a Sundeer 64 ketch. They were designed as a couple boat and are rigged for sailing from the cockpit. They have probably completed more circumnavigations than any other boat their size, often only sailed by 2.

There was nothing wrong with the boat.

The owner/skipper was inexperienced, at least with this boat.

He should not have been there.

This link catalogs boats and mileage.
SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History
How do you know the experience of the Marine Flower 2 Skipper?

Even the designers of the Sundeer 64 say they now do not feel comfortable handling such a boat and now have designed a similar power boat:

From:

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website
This quote from the Dashew's;

"But we've past the point where we were comfortable handling this much sail by ourselves, and we did not want to take crew. The FPB was the next step for us, and perhaps for others facing the same dilemma.

When we started this new project Linda was all for it. Steve, on the other hand, felt he was being forced in this direction by the march of time. At 62 years and counting, it was no longer prudent for the two of us to cross oceans, dealing with the spinnakers and reachers that are part of our sailing equation."

Also, some reports state Marine Flower II was taking on water. Even the CG rescue swimmer stated this in one of his posted interviews. Also wikipedia reported the vessel taking on water:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Gordon_(1994)

From
Offshore, a family of four required rescue from the Coast Guard after their boat began filling with water in the midst of 17 ft (5.2 m) surf.[43] A 49 ft (15 m) sailboat was disabled about 115 mi (185 km) offshore Norfolk, Virginia, and the crew of three were also rescued by the Coast Guard.[1] The sailboat was sailing from Bermuda to Oxford, Maryland, but was halted after the engine failed, the anchor was ripped off, and the mainstay was torn.[44] The interaction between Gordon and a ridge over New England produced coastal flooding in eastern Virginia. Tides reached 4 ft (1.2 m) above normal in Virginia Beach, which washed away 100 ft (30 m) of a fishing pier. The high tides caused road damage and minor housing damage.[18]

[43]
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/stor...eloc/ilm04.gif


Also, Hurricane Gordon was a very complex system. The weather bureau could not accurately predict its path or fomation. Go online and look at its track- it made 6 landfalls:


Hurricane Gordon[edit]Category 1 hurricane (SSHS)

Duration November 8 – November 21
Peak intensity 85 mph (140 km/h) (1-min) 980 mbar (hPa)

Main article: Hurricane Gordon (1994)
Hurricane Gordon was the final storm of the season. The system formed near Panama in the southwestern Caribbean Sea on November 9. Strengthening into a tropical storm, Gordon wound its way north into the Greater Antilles. Despite warm waters, persistent wind shear prevented significant strengthening. Executing a slow turn to the north and then the northwest, Gordon made two more landfalls, on eastern Jamaica and eastern Cuba. As Tropical Storm Gordon made its fourth landfall crossing the Florida Keys, it interacted with a cyclone in the upper-troposphere and a series of cyclonic lows which lent the storm some sub-tropical characteristics. After a few days as an unusual hybrid of a tropical and a subtropical system in the Gulf of Mexico, the storm re-claimed its tropical storm status and it made another landfall across the Florida peninsula and continued into the Atlantic Ocean. In the Atlantic, Gordon rapidly strengthened to a Category 1 hurricane. Gordon's characteristic briefly approached North Carolina, but ultimately the storm headed south, weakening into a minor tropical storm before making its sixth and final landfall on Florida's east coast. Overall, the storm made six separate landfalls.[42]


Those Sundeers look like amazing boats, never herd of them before. Interesting no one went out after Gordon to try to claim the boat. Looks like the value was over $500k. Also interesting the boat did not show up in Europe later in the year, unless it was taking on water. Boat has at least two water tight bulkheads.

Last edited by casey1999; 11-01-2013 at 02:58 PM.
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  #77  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
We may have found our newest version of an anchor argument. In the end, this is all a matter of personal preference and opinion, with just a little bit of data thrown in to make it irreconcilable.
Precisely! I am always amazed at the religious fervor with which people can vociferously debate these “How Long is a piece of string?” type issues. The reality is that like so many of these things, there is no one-size-fits-all, universally always correct answer here.

The safety of any length boat derives from the specific individual and the specific boat in question. The reality is that people buy boats based on what they fear the most. The unspoken decision process is based on a range of questions; Questions such as: (Caution: The following material may contain items which were stated with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
-Do I fear being uncomfortable more than I fear not being able to manhandle the boat?
-Do I fear a large amount of complexity more than I fear having to give up performance and seakeeping?
-Do I fear spending a lot of money to buy and maintain a boat than I fear living in a cramped cabin?
-Do I fear being rolled in a 25 foot wave, than I fear being rolled in a 50 foot wave?
-Do I fear having to work for a few more years more than I fear not have a dedicated_______ (fill in the blank...chart table, galley table, pilothouse,gigantic steering wheel or twin wheels, etc.)
-Do I fear having a dinghy which is a third of the length of my boat and needs to be deflated and stored more than I fear not being able to anchor close to shore?
-Do I fear taking twice as long making a passage, than I fear paying for a bigger slip or not being able to trailer my boat?
-Do I fear having to ration my consumables on a long passage more than I fear losing fingers or worse adjusting extremely highly stressed control lines?
-Do I fear the sense of being isolated from the sailing that comes with highly mechanized sailing more than I fear the physical labor of sailing a smaller less mechanized boat?

And so on…

And the next thing you know these discussions get distorted with anecdotal and asymmetrical arguments. Take the original poster for example. He happens to own one of the few small purpose built cruisers that may actually be safer to sail than the majority of boats which are larger. But in the vast universe of similar sized boats, a boat this size which is also as capable of making safe distance voyages is a rarity. Which is okay, since few people have the mindset that it takes to make long distance offshore passages in a boat that is this small.

On the other extreme are the points raised by my esteemed colleague, Paulo. Paulo rightly points at very large designs which are well designed and engineered to allow a couple to safely handle them in a broad range of conditions. These are truly amazing boats that demonstrate what the ingenuity of man can accomplish. But again, few of us can afford to buy one these, and frankly few of us have the skills that it would take to sail one of these well, and safely, and to repair any possible critical element that might happen to fail mid-passage.

And even if (and I know that is a big 'if') we can agree that these particular larger boats can be safely handled by a couple if properly engineered and equipped, that does not apply to all larger boats. For as good as these examples may be, the majority of big boats out there are neither designed, or equipped or even easily adaptable to being safely sailed by a couple.

And at the end of the day, the reality is that boats at neither end of the extremes truly make sense for any of us. In an ideal world, we have each analyzed our specific needs in terms of how and where we sail, comfort requirements, purchase and operating budget, need for speed, tastes, skill sets, and physical abilities, and purchased the exact right boat that is the precise mix of virtues and liabilities to unequivocally correspond to our needs. And that boat is precisely the right sized boat for safety. (At least, until our needs and our corresponding analysis once changes one way or the other.)
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 11-01-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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  #78  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Jeff,

Well said.

When I started the thread, I only had in mind asking why so many people equate size with safety. It is NOT. You can get a very safe & seaworthy boat in just about ANY size. Because my Nor'Sea is 27 foot, she is not automatically unsafe. I know that many 27s might be unsafe for blue water. Just because a boat is 65 foot, does NOT guarantee she is safe. AND a lot depends on the crew!

My working carrier was in the aerospace industry. The last 10+ in spacecraft. I worked with many of the best engineers in the world. But that did not mean we didn't have failures!!

Greg
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  #79  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
..

Even the designers of the Sundeer 64 say they now do not feel comfortable handling such a boat and now have designed a similar power boat:

..

"But we've past the point where we were comfortable handling this much sail by ourselves, and we did not want to take crew. The FPB was the next step for us, and perhaps for others facing the same dilemma.

When we started this new project Linda was all for it. Steve, on the other hand, felt he was being forced in this direction by the march of time. At 62 years and counting, it was no longer prudent for the two of us to cross oceans, dealing with the spinnakers and reachers that are part of our sailing equation."

....
They are just saying that having reached the age of 62 they think it is too much boat for them now. It was obviously that it was not before, when they were younger. They have sailed it extensively.

Regards

Paulo
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  #80  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Here ship size and safety taken to the extreme:
Only In America: Why Mega Cruise Ships Are Unsafe: Opinion
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