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"Free boat" seaworthiness

25K views 250 replies 36 participants last post by  captain jack 
#1 ·
hi folks. I have a big question but first, some background. I've been sailing for 17 years. I taught myself to sail on a 9' dinghy and I still sail her the most. she's convenient and fun. anyhow, I also own a holiday 20. it's a rock stable boat, when compared to my dinghy, and I've never even come close to worrying about a capsize. although, I must be honest, I've faced a lot worse situations in that dinghy than the 20. really crazy stuff, especially since I can't swim. lol.

now, the question. I am about to get a j24 for free. yep. free. it's in good functional shape. brand new sails. only needs a bit of trim work, really. the only thing is it's covered in mud and it doesn't come with a trailer. I have to move it immediately, if i'm to get it, so I have to see if I can find an affordable marina. I don't know what else to do. anyhow, my question:

when I first found out about this boat, I didn't know what it was. the guy only told me it was a keel boat and "24' Chesapeake". now, I thought he might have been telling me a model. cheapeake. searched the web over. found two possibilities. anyhow, at that size and full keel I figured light cruiser. found out tonight it's a j24 and got a pic of it. I will put the pic on here for shock value. lol.

anyhow, i'd like to use the boat for day sailing and light cruising; weekends or over night. everyone knows what a j24 is but I've never sailed one. so, I was searching the web and I found some disturbing stuff. I read a lot about them being prone to capsize and sinking. I've also heard that they have a bit of lee helm. I figured a keel boat would be more stable than my holidays 20, which is a center boarder.

I intend to sail her from back river, in the Chesapeake bay. I was wondering if I could get input from any who have sailed them about their sailing qualities. obviously, i'm looking for something stable for cruiser type use. I don't care about racing. I just love to sail.

so, are they that unseaworthy? are there any suggestions to make one more seaworthy? I don't mind some moderate modifications but I have a shoestring budget. that has to be kept in mind.

if I can get a place to keep her, I am going to take her. free boats don't happen every day...at least not to me. but, if she won't suit my purpose, i'll fix her up and try to sell her to afford a boat that does. too bad it couldn't be a nordica20, halman20, or flicka. that would have been perfect. but never look a gift horse in the mouth.

thanks in advance.
 
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#150 ·
hmmm there is a 27' hunter, on eay, in edgewood, md. that's just up the street from back river. I wonder, if he is going to give it to me...I am still looking at it Saturday....how is it being sold on ebay?
 
#151 · (Edited)
that's not the boat, unless he moved it. piney point is far down the bay from Essex. same type of boat, though. it's good to see what it's supposed to look like. the boat on ebay also doesn't have an outboard on it. but it is an odd coincidence.
 
#153 ·
I am still going to see the boat, but i'm going to see if he will let me scrap it out before he cuts it up. it would save him money on disposal. landfills charge by the pound. i'd like the rails, winches, and other hardware. sails, too, if he is willing...and the sail cover. but, looking at the boat on ebay, I am not impressed. I am sure it's really trashed inside and the boat just wasn't much to write home about, when new.
 
#158 ·
Jonesy, I agree with just about everything you said, and I'm usually a big advocate of buying cheap boats (or taking free ones). I've done it 3 times. But THIS boat was not the "best free boat" he could have found. That was the point that many of us were trying to make. If you read most of the posts, most of us were pushing him to the boat Denise had identified. It was still FAR from perfect, but it would have met most of your other criteria. If he could have gotten that boat for a few hundred bucks, even if it only lasted him 2-3 years, I'd have been very happy for him. But did you SEE the pictures of the boat that started the thread, and that was the subject of most of the nay-saying?
 
#159 ·
If someone has the vision, drive and attention span to restore a boat that was sunk, abandoned damaged etc. Just about any boat can be restored to it's original beauty. It's done all the time with wooden boats. The problem is not the boat's condition so much as the person taking on the project. The world is full of "project" boats. big, little, power, paddle row, speed, super yachts to rowboats. The love quickly ebs and is replaced with sighs.. then the tarp goes over the "thing" to make it "out of sight out of mind" Suddenly.. years went by!
 
#160 ·
jimgo, IF the first boat is the best boat he can find, so be it. BUT he has been offered a couple of choices since then, so there are lots of "BEST free boat" contenders.
And, make no mistake, I am advocating finding the BEST free boat, not just ANY free boat.
That is not that same as muttering that "no free boat is free." Hell, we all know that. but that doesn't mean a free boat is unworthy of consideration because it is free.
Dirt is dirt, and a dirty boat is often a low-buck sailor's gift.

When my son was a crib-sleeping infant, he discovered that he could take off his full Huggie and paint his crib with it. It stank. It wasn't pretty. But, you know something, it washed off, with no permanent harm to the crib...
and he outgrew the crib in a couple of years anyway.
30-40year old fiberglass sailboats are like that.
They can be ugly and stinky and underequipped and yadda yadda yadda, BUT...
all of that is fixable, and while it may not create the fastest, bestest sailing, highest pointing, most agile boat in the fleet...
it gets a poor bastage on the water, and grinning. the rest is just details.
 
#161 ·
When my son was a crib-sleeping infant, he discovered that he could take off his full Huggie and paint his crib with it. It stank. It wasn't pretty. But, you know something, it washed off, with no permanent harm to the crib...
Okay - this metaphor just went completely off the rails.

Unless you're riffing on the "this boat is a POS" theme - I'm trying to focus on my curry here and would appreciate a little mental space.
 
#163 ·
you know, I have looked at the picture of that boat a thousand times over. it's dirty as hell, but the mast is clean as can be and it's got a nice sail cover.. he told me it's been on the water for 4 months. that rain did get inside and he had to pump it out. he said it got that muddy in low tide. not sure what that means, even, his emails come from his phone and he is a terrible pone typer. lol. I took it to mean it may have tilted over when the water went too low for the keel. I don't know. i'm going to try to get clarity, tomorrow.

if he's telling the truth, it might not be totally trashed. I know it looks worse than that pic of the boat that was submerged for a month or something, in a previous post, but this boat is on the Chesapeake. I don't know the quality of the river that other boat sank in, but the Chesapeake is really dirty. no lie. I love it, but it's filthy. it's water is filthy. and there is a lot of trash on it. if he's telling the truth, well, I can see how falling over in the Chesapeake would make a boat look that bad.

on the other hand, he could be lying. he could have fund it sunk and raised it, hoping to fix it, given up and now his aunt says the boat has to go because he never worked on it. to be honest, when he told me he didn't have the title, Thursday, I was sure it proved he was lying. if he got it from a bank auction, he'd have the title. if he raised a sunken, abandoned boat, he wouldn't have the title.

when he told me, today, he found the title, it gave his story more plausibility. tomorrow will tell all.
 
#165 ·
you know, I have looked at the picture of that boat a thousand times over. it's dirty as hell, but the mast is clean as can be and it's got a nice sail cover.. he told me it's been on the water for 4 months. that rain did get inside and he had to pump it out. he said it got that muddy in low tide. not sure what that means...
It probably means that it sat on the bottom in water that was about 4' deep at low tide. When the tide came in, the boat would flood and get coated with dirty water. When the tide went out, the deck and top of the hull would be exposed, causing the dirty water to dry and cake on the boat. Through all of this the mast would stay clean if the boat was upright.

That other boat that sunk was in the Delaware River, which isn't exactly pristine. However, it did have ~2 knot tidal currents which would prevent the dirt from caking on. Chesapeake and tributaries generally have much less tidal current.
 
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#166 ·
as far as a motor goes, i'm not sure I really need one. I never used a motor on my 20' sloop. I know how to sail to and from a dock. this boat's only 24 feet long. probably not more than 22' on the water line. it's not much bigger than the holiday. if the wind dies, I should be able to scull it. heck, I've rowed the holiday. given the right oars, I don't see why this boat couldn't be rowed in an emergency. although, since I intend to sail the bay, I may see about an electric motor, in case of emergency. of course, that's assuming it's not a total train wreck and I do take it. I had pretty much decided I wouldn't but I wouldn't judge a person by the way they look, i'd give them a chance to show me the cut of their jib, first. same with this boat.
 
#170 ·
having seen a similar boat, albeit a different year, on ebay, even knowing the exact length and model, I still can't find anything on line about these boats. he said something about there being an article about them, but I don't know where. does anyone know of a place besides sailboatdata to search? a general search, on the web, yields nothing but that ebay listing.
 
#172 ·
by the way, what year electraglide? if it's an AMFer from the bad old days, you'd be better off with the moped. more reliable and leaks less oil. :D
 
#176 · (Edited)
yeah. they also have a bigger version, the vacationer, and a skilled person could scale up the plans to go bigger. but I was just curious. I won't deny having thought along those lines but I don't have time to completely build a boat, right now. if I were to do one, i'd scale it up. it'd take more material of course. but I think you could build one that was a pretty nice cruiser, had you the time. I think i'd have to look at the keel design. it's balanced with the sail plan, obviously, but I think i'd want a more traditional keel profile and just refigure the sails to get the right balance. figuring that stuff out isn't beyond my means. but there is the time issue.

but, who knows. someday.....they are a pretty little boat. reminds me of a skipjack or a bugeye. very traditional looks. I like that. I have a 9' dinghy with a long shallow keel and a sprit sail in the back of my truck. i'm an old fashioned kind of guy. :)

heck, you could even do it as a schooner. kind of a vacationer/Bolger light schooner hybred.
 
#178 ·
oh. so they don't have good sailing qualities? the construction method is much like the instant boats. I like the traditional look, but I think if I built a boat, I would lift the lines from my dinghy and use them as the basis of a much larger boat. although I have concerted it to long keel, and made a sprit sail for it, it is a modern performance hull and has great sailing qualities. better with the shallow keel. enlarged to, say, 25 feet, and add enough freeboard to give decent head room inside, it would work out nicely.

but I digress. today is the moment of truth and I should go to sleep. I have to be there in 6 hours.
 
#182 ·
I went to see the boat.

first, the guy isn't a con man, a moron, or a jerk as I suspected from our communication. he's a nice guy just trying to keep peace in the family. he was very friendly and helpful. if I can't take the boat, I am welcome to strip it of stuff I want. I am welcome to do that or take the boat at my convenience, without him there, and just let him know I am. then, if I take it, he will meet me with the title.

the boat is in very shallow water. it was low tide when I saw it and the bottom was in mud. the tiller was hard to turn, because of it being in mud, and we tried to pull the boat around to the lift, so I could see the entire hull ( he was genuinely helpful ) but it was like dragging a car, it was so mired in the mud. we only were able to pull it so far before giving up. and there was a cloud of mud in the water after we moved it. so, that's why it flooded at low tide. something I, personally, think happened more than once...or maybe it stayed flooded for a few days before he pumped it.

the complete story on the boat is that his aunt's daughter had been on sailboats, twice, while on vacation. she decided she wanted to sail and she worked at the bank where the boat was auctioned. she bought it for $1600 a year ago. she had it at another relative's house until 4 or 5 moths ago, when they told he it had to go. this aunt decided enough was enough because they never did anything at all to the boat.

she bought them 'new' sails for the boat. they obviously were used because I know new Dacron when I see it and that's not it.

now, the boat:

it has about an inch of water in it, from the recent rains.

the barnacles are worse than i'd hoped. Denise called that right. the boat must have floated heavy with water for a little bit before he pumped it. they are pretty heavy up til about 6" from the deck. there are some barnacles in the cockpit, as well. that's the worst part of the boat.

the deck is rock solid, with no cracks of gel blisters, except a small soft spot on the starboard cabin roof/deck. it is reachable from the inside and it's not a big deal. good old boat had an excellent article on how to repair such a thing.

the V-berth shelf has a few small gel blisters, not a hard repair, but is rock solid. no other fiberglass issues are visible. there are no old holes, from moved hardware, that might cause fiberglass problems.

the only thing the daughter managed to really do was to gut the inside. which is good. there is no disgusting wood or material to remove. just bare fiberglass to clean. it smells of oysters ( bay water ) inside but is not moldy.

it has an alcohol stove, which needs cleaned, and a sink. it also has a quarter berth.

the tiller was rotted from exposure, but that's not a hard thing to make. the rudder moved smoothly, except for being mired in the mud.

the mast, boom, and all the running rigging is in fine shape. the metal hardware, even what was exposed to the water, is in good shape. one of the rubber rub rails needs replaced.

the faux wood is actually a pattern in the fiberglass and the color was the topside paint. it wouldn't be unattractive if redone well.

they left the main sail lashed to the boom with the material sail cover on it, apparently since they got the sails. the cover was damp and there is a little mildew on the sail which would need cleaned. the halyard is stuck up at the mast head and i'd have to lower the sail to fix that. but that's not a huge problem since the mast is stepped on the deck with a hinged mast step, like on my holiday.

except for the wood colored deck paint, the topside paint looks fine. this gives me hope that the bottom paint may be good. if this is true, the barnacles may not be under the waterline, just on the sides, were the boat was sitting lower than the bottom paint.

since he is ok with me coming back to the house, without him there ( his aunt is on vacation he is hoping to deal with the boat before she returns Monday ), I am thinking of asking if he would mind if I used the lift, tonight, at high tide, to examine the underwater parts of the boat.
 
#183 ·
the jib sail is not on the boat. the posts for the safety line, that is supposed to connect with the rails at the bow and stern, are missing. the hatch lids are also missing. he is going to ask about those things, for me.

he said there was an article done about the builder and he will call his aunt, who knows about that, where that article can be found.

what I don't like about the boat, itself:

that's a small list. the flat top means that the deck, above the cabin, is not level. it's angled. it has a 1" high toe rail, but I find that small comfort as the deck was slippery. I can only imagine how it would be in heavy weather. choosing a new deck paint with non-slip properties would help that out but I still would prefer a slightly raised cabin and a narrower, level, deck to walk forward on. sound silly, maybe, but I don't swim and I don't fancy slipping overboard when I go up to lash down the jib, in a blow. roller furling would help, but still....

there isn't a ton of head room inside. thankfully, i'm not overly tall. still, it's not great for more than weekends. not that you couldn't do more than weekends. it would be more like camping: uncomfortable, hard on the back, but still fun anyway.

after knowing it was under muddy water, I don't think that motor only needs plugs. however, i'd prefer a quiet, non-polluting, non-stinking battery powered motor, anyway. it has a lazerate, which also needs it's cover, that could house a large marine battery.

don't think I forgot anything. now, my quandary:
 
#184 ·
over all, the boat is far better than I had hoped. if the bottom paint is bad and it's coated with barnacles, that will be costly and time consuming. the average cost of hauling, blocking, cleaning, and launching is around $600 for a 24' sailboat, so far. I may be able to dicker a little, if I clean it myself.

on the other hand, if the bottom paint is good and the barnacles are only where I can see them, I wouldn't have to haul it. I could do my repairs on the water. that would drastically reduce the costs.

that being said, there are two arguments in my mind,

argument one:

it's not that bad and wouldn't take much to be a decent weekend cruiser. from what I have seen, it wouldn't cost a lot for the materials to fix it up. the storage is the real price problem. I could weld my trailer, quickly ( I need to stop putting that off anyhow ) and sail my holiday while I worked on it. then, when i'm done and have sailed the 'new' boat for a while, I can decide if I want to sell one of them or whatever. i'm thinking it would be foolish to ever sell the holiday. it's not costing me anything. as long as I have it, i'll have a sailboat. but I could sail the 'new' boat until I was prepared to upgrade and sell it for a few hundred dollars and still make profit.

argument two:

if I have to haul it, that'll be costly, in the short run, and my holiday costs me nothing. which is part of this argument, to wit: I already have a sailboat that needs no work and isn't going to cost me anything. also, as I have been reminded, I have a lot on my plate and do I really need another project? perhaps it would be better to strip it, at high tide tonight, and save my money til I find a better cheap or free boat, that won't take as much work. of course, it would be a shame to let it get cut up, but that's not my problem ( not an actual sentiment that fits my personality. if I choose argument two, I will feel bad about dooming this boat )

so, there you have it. I think I pretty much covered it. that's my dilemma.
 
#185 ·
Did you see the title, or anything else, to tell you what kind of boat it is?
 
#186 ·
I didn't see the title. but I know what it is. a few posts back, someone found the same type of boat for sale on ebay. there are pictures of that boat back in the thread. it is, apparently, a Chesapeake, just like the guy said, originally. it's 24'11" LOA. 3" draft. he is supposed to get me the information so I can find and read the article about the builder. this is the boat, un-barnacled. lol. it was built by a local builder who did a very small volume.
 

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#187 · (Edited)
Do any of the boat people you know know of a scout troop or youth organization that could use the rescue of this boat as a project? A boatbuilding/trade school?

Not to sound paranoid, but having dealt with Misters Murphy & Finagle many times, how much 'cushion' do you have in case something goes wrong with the Holiday or trailer?

I see how having a major 'project' boat would give you something to do when the weather is too bad to take the other boat out (N.B. Fix that trailer first! :) ), but can you afford the time/money sink this free boat will be? Are there projects you could do for your working boat instead?
 
#188 ·
I don't really know any boat people, like that. the ones I do 'know' are up at lake Marburg, in Pa, where I have sailed for the last 17 years. I have started sailing on the Chesapeake, where this boat it, this summer and I don't know anyone here. this boat does not have a trailer and is a keel boat. no one from Pa is likely to be interested in a boat stuck here.

because I love sailboats, i'd like to save this sailboat. he's going to cut it up if I can't take it, and junk it. I would get stuff of off it to use on my holiday, but the boat's fate would be sealed. if I can't take it, finding someone who would is the next best thing but I don't know anyone.

i'm not actually looking for a project, per se. I have tons on my plate, already. but would like a small cruiser with a fixed keel; something kept on the water that I wouldn't have to trailer and raise the mast every time I use it. the holiday is a C/B day sailor. it's an awesome boat, but it's not a fix keel cruiser and I always need someone to help me raise the mast. I can't put it up, hold it up, AND hook up he jib stay all at the same time. the first time I sailed it, I single handed it but I had someone there to help me with the mast, when I launched and retrieved it. keeping a boat on the water would really be convenient if I wanted to go sailing, in a bigger boat, but no one was available to go with me.

as far as cushion, i'm an average working stiff, I live my life without any cushion. when emergencies pop up, I figure out a way. most people I know live that way.
 
#189 ·
Well if you can get it to free storage, it might just be worth saving. If you are going to have to pay for storage, then it likely will not. Free boats that can be fixed at home in the back/side yard are not too bad, and it sounds as though you like projects, I think I would have to side with BL Jones on this. Just be ok with the fact that you might have to cut it up and get rid of it if it does not work out. I would set a time limit with yourself, such as if it is not back in the water by the end of summer 2015 then it gets given away or taken to the dump.
 
#190 ·
I agree with miatapaul to a certain extent. I just don't understand why you've "fallen in love" with this boat. It seems clear that this boat sank and was submerged, at least up to 6" below the deck. Based on the mud cakes, the deck was submerged also, and with the stanchions missing, it's a sure thing that the deck core is soaking wet and rotting from the inside. I know the guy seems like a nice fellow, but I still don't think he's giving you the whole story and fessing up to the duration of neglect.

Many use analogies between women and boats. If you compare this boat to the dozens of other neglected boats out there that could be gotten for almost no money (many on trailers), she is a "crack ho." I'd like to see you upgrade at least to some "trailer trash" that you can haul to your property and work on without incurring storage fees, insurance, and other ongoing unavoidable costs.

There's a story behind every derelict boat out there, and most of them start with guys just like you - good skills, eager to find a bargain, but work commitments needed to make a living prevent them from having enough time to make any real progress, so the boats just sit.
 
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#191 ·
Any chance the aunt would let you keep it there for a nominal fee until you can get the boat seaworthy? Earlier you posted she wanted it moved because nothing was being done to the boat. If you can start making some (even minor, but visible) cosmetic fixes, the aunt might be more accepting. Offer her a sailing picnic once the boat passes sea trials. :) Can't hurt to ask.

Good luck with her!
(That's her, the boat, and her the aunt.)
 
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#192 · (Edited)
lol. thanks. I thought of that. but she doesn't know me and her neighbors are complaining about the boat being there. if she is kicking out her kin, I doubt she would let me keep it there, even for rent, til I get it back in order. I had thought of that though. maybe I should think of it some more.
 
#193 ·
ok. the plot thickens. found out a bit more. we stopped by to look at the boat, again. I wanted to see it at high tide, when it's actually floating. maybe a bad idea. the motion of a boat on the water is seductive. we went on over, without texting him first. he said I could take it whenever so I figured he wouldn't mind me looking at it again.

I discovered that the halyard is not stuck. so, I can sail it out of there....if I take it, I mean. I won't deny, a big part of me wants to. and, while we were there a younger guy comes out to talk to us. turns out, he is the aunt's actual son...and he lives there. I explained why we were on her property and we had a conversation.

the boat has been there for years, according to him. it was much nicer when it got there. it's been underwater numerous times, some of them not so short. so, that's something to know and it agrees with my own suspicions, after seeing it. tillers don't usually rot in the open air. still, after looking it over again, while floating this time, I can't say that there is structural damage. the deck is solid, except that one spot. the chain plates are solid and the rigging good. the rudder does work just fine, out of the mud.

this guy invited us to come by during the day, tomorrow, if we wish to look at it again. I am going to and, since he lives there, I am going to ask his permission to use the lift so I can see the underside. that would be a big help.

so, there it is, still torn. the history is frightening yet it looks better than it sounds. it is free. it wouldn't cost a ton to get ready to sail. but the marina fees will be something to consider. I did find a better and cheaper marina. they will do monthly and I can get a slip with a lift, if I like.

still considering....
 
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