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  #201  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Lighters are a dangerous thing to have on a boat akin to a schedule or paper charts. Matches get wet. So the answer is a flint.
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  #202  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Further evidence, that East coast snowbirds just don't sail... :-)
*grin* When sailors make disparaging comments about power cruisers I point out that the biggest difference between (most) sail cruisers and power cruisers is that (most) sail cruisers only motor 90% of the time. *grin*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I don't understand the dismissive nature of some of the posts on this thread. It appears people aren't allowed to comment or discuss unless they meet certain metrics gained by experience. Who decides what these metrics are? Why can't a day sailor who only sails on Flat Calm Lake come up with an original point or idea relevant to the topic at hand.
I can't speak to all the comments you take exception to. One of your objections is likely to a comment of mine.

A day sailor on Flat Calm Lake can certainly come up with an original point or idea. Statistically there is a commentary based on cut and paste from magazines or book that the poster doesn't understand and isn't applicable to the case in hand. It's usually pretty easy for me to see through those posts, but I worry about those earlier on the learning curve that give credence to those posts. People can get hurt.

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Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
This post reminds me of my medical training; after the juniors had been up all night up to their asses in alligators, blood and guts a 9-5 academic lab doctor would explain to us exactly what we had done wrong while he was asleep! All invitations to join us at night were ignored.
Cut and paste doctors? *grin*

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Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
It is very hard to criticize the guy who was at the sharp end while you were at home in bed.
Agree. That doesn't mean the guy at the sharp end did everything right. It means that sometimes when you're at the sharp end the best you can isn't good enough.
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  #203  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
Lighters are a dangerous thing to have on a boat akin to a schedule or paper charts. Matches get wet. So the answer is a flint.

But, you forgot the BFS...... Big Friggin Shovel...... to get through this thread
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  #204  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Crazy Thread.As for being new "4 years sailing" This Thread has a loght to teach a new guy like me. I do not cut corners on safety. I have been going more and More offshore. To gain my confidence up. I have been 15 miles out for the first time by my self. very humbling for me. I could envision all kind of bad stuff happening. I don't have all the off shore gear yet. It cost big money. Its going to take a while.I don't plan on leaving yet. I have a 5 year plan. I'am learning as I go. Day sailing and short jaunts overnight to learn how to anchor. I have a 30 Foot C&C MK1 I have ask a lot of folks on here if she is suitable for off shore and the vote is half and half.

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So much to learn great site to learn at.
Hope these folks learned. Makes me not want to go.
If it becomes over regulated only the rich will sail.
I say let them pay the bill. if they don't follow standard safety sailing rules of safety.

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  #205  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
this this not a schedule?
Quote:
The Fall 2013 Salty Dawg Rally will depart on November 4 (weather permitting) from Bluewater Yachting Center, Hampton, VA (or other locations of your choice), to sail to the British Virgin Islands, the Bahamas, or other various locations.
I suppose you and I have different ideas of what constitutes a "schedule". Pretty much every time I set foot on a boat, it's been pre-planned with a particular date in mind - a flight booked to the location of the boat, for example - with the departure subject to weather permitting, naturally... But, I really don't see how one coordinates the arrival of crew at a point of departure, etc, with at least a nod towards some sort of 'schedule'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
Can you cite where the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally have ever cited an argument touting 'safety in numbers'? Who is fostering such a perception, precisely?
"They" are Jon. It's "them". Sigh.

It's not exactly exotic psychology here. And not much needs to be touted in this area. The perception already exists and it's a strong perception. Then when elements like this...
Again, I'd be interested in seeing where the Salty Dawg organizers have ever promoted the "safety in numbers" aspect of their rally... Their "basic philosophy' as stated in their website seems to promote quite the opposite, with the focus placed on Individual Responsibility, as a matter of fact...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Again, I'm not addressing the above points to any particular rally. I'm arguing that all rallies should hold to a higher level of safety standards such as ISAF - precisely because they introduce elements of risk that are unique and typically not similarly present in individual cruising. I actually didn't know before the above article that the C1500 did just that. I think that's great. But, judging by SDR founders' quote above, that approach was obviously too rigorous for them and another 116 sailors.

Now that there's been a problem, there are questions that should be explored.
So, then - can you - or anyone else - provide examples of how a pre-rally inspection/certification to ISAF standards would have avoided or prevented whatever issues that arose with the particular boats/crews last week?
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  #206  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I suppose you and I have different ideas of what constitutes a "schedule". Pretty much every time I set foot on a boat, it's been pre-planned with a particular date in mind - a flight booked to the location of the boat, for example - with the departure subject to weather permitting, naturally... But, I really don't see how one coordinates the arrival of crew at a point of departure, etc, with at least a nod towards some sort of 'schedule'...
Cool. So now we're in agreement that the SDR had a schedule. It seemed earlier you were saying they didn't:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
The Salty Dawg's had a "schedule"? Really?
++++++

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Again, I'd be interested in seeing where the Salty Dawg organizers have ever promoted the "safety in numbers" aspect of their rally... Their "basic philosophy' as stated in their website seems to promote quite the opposite, with the focus placed on Individual Responsibility, as a matter of fact...
Yes. The rally organizers made it quite clear in the quote from that article I linked above that everything rested squarely on the shoulders of the participants...not the rally organizers. She also insisted that only "seasoned mariners" were involved. And knowing you, I'm sure that you fully agree that having "completed one off-shore passage" qualifies one as such. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
So, then - can you - or anyone else - provide examples of how a pre-rally inspection/certification to ISAF standards would have avoided or prevented whatever issues that arose with the particular boats/crews last week?
Until more facts are in I don't suppose we can prove a negative.

You seem to like to argue in circles - saying things that it's really hard for me to believe you actually believe. But whatever. We'll see how things shake out.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-11-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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  #207  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yes. The rally organizers made it quite clear in the quote from that article I linked above that everything rested squarely on the shoulders of the participants...not the rally organizers. She also insisted that only "seasoned mariners" were involved. And knowing you, I'm sure that you fully agree that having "completed one off-shore passage" qualifies one as such. Right?
Is there anything wrong with having only done one offshore passage, and joining a rally to do your next??

There seems to be a bit of scoffing going on in this thread in direction of cruisers with less experience that the Pardeys entering and participating in rallies as a way of pushing their boundaries in company with other cruisers.
I actually think its a good thing. Understanding of course that the responsibility does lie with the skipper, and that the sea doesn't care how many boats are out there.

THE ARC unapologetically markets itself at people looking to do their first ocean crossing. (You could argue of course that the ARC then also insists and checks for a level of safety that EXCEEDS Cat 1 and conducts alot of pre departure safety briefings/training - but yeah I will let you argue that ).
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  #208  
Old 11-12-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Is there anything wrong with having only done one offshore passage, and joining a rally to do your next??

There seems to be a bit of scoffing going on in this thread in direction of cruisers with less experience that the Pardeys entering and participating in rallies as a way of pushing their boundaries in company with other cruisers.
I actually think its a good thing. Understanding of course that the responsibility does lie with the skipper, and that the sea doesn't care how many boats are out there.
Nothing wrong at all. But I do find it a little incongruous when the claim is made that everyone participating are "seasoned mariners" when the requirement to entry is a single "bluewater" (whatever that means) passage.

Look, put quite simply, unless there is a very high standard of safety for a rally (like Bubble pointed out earlier) I think there is a very fine line in providing the "incentives and benefits" a rally provides yet laying all liability on the shoulders of skippers that may be very new to the game.

As Bubble mentioned earlier - rallies can be a great learning opportunity if run like the ARC and the C1500 - which have high standards of safety. But a look at the numbers shows that the SDR pulled down far more boats than the C1500.

So what does that say? Which is the better model?
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  #209  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So what does that say? Which is the better model?
I'm not sure what it says....maybe something.. maybe not.

The better model I believe probably lies somewhere in between and along the lines of what Bubble suggested. We intend on participating in the Louisiades Rally here in Oz next year. The following is from their rally briefing.....

http://www.louisiades.com/wp-content...iefing-v12.pdf

Quote:
"The rally is an event for seaworthy cruising yachts sailed by competent crew. The rally organisers will NOT undertake safety inspections nor certify a vessel is fit for participation in the rally. Those new to bluewater cruising may seek advice from rally organisers, who may choose to provide it without any implied liability or certification. We strongly recommend that yachts comply with the Yachting Australia’s Safety Category One.
The rally organiser went on his first overseas trip with the Darwin to Ambon yacht race almost twenty years ago and understands the need for guidance and advice for those new to overseas/offshore cruising, just ask!"

Having said the above we do reserve the right to refuse an entry up until the day of customs clearance (with full refunds of unexpended fees paid). Such a refusal would be on the grounds that the organisers have concerns regarding the safety of the vessel or competence of the crew (which could inconvenience or put at risk other participants).
They go on the list specific requirements. Of note in relation to the incidents in the SDR and subsequent communications issues raised, the one thing that we must do to enter the Louisiades Rally is get a licensed Radio Technician to inspect and certify our HF radio.
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  #210  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Statistically there is a commentary based on cut and paste from magazines or book that the poster doesn't understand and isn't applicable to the case in hand. It's usually pretty easy for me to see through those posts
Not sure what you mean here or how it pretains to an original idea.
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