Rallies Gone Wrong - Page 42 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree352Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #411  
Old 12-07-2013
blowinstink's Avatar
Call me Ishmael
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 434
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 7
blowinstink is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
So let's talk about that. Given a choice I'd leave from Norfolk (actually Little Creek) first, second choice Newport, last choice Beaufort.
I'd defer to your experience (as you know, I have one marginally successful offshore passage and a half dozen 24-48hr coastal runs so I am hardly experienced). However, on our trip in 2011 to the Abacos from Beaufort, the difference between being across the GS in 30 hours (as you are leaving B-fort) when the weather began departing pretty dramatically from the forecast was huge. If we'd have left from Norfolk , not only would we have experienced a significantly stronger frontal passing -- but we would have been in the middle of the GS when the weather deteriorated(it would take our boat 60+hrs to clear the GS). Don Street seems to strongly favor the more southern jump. I am curious, what makes you prefer the Chesapeake (Little Creek) departure? The only reason I can see for wanting to leave from further north would be for those headed to the eastern Caribbean who was to use the GS to make some of that easting (is that what you were getting at?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
How do you measure that? Do you mean experience or competence?
I have no way of knowing. We learned so many lessons -- tangible and intangible on that passage. The Rally organizers by virtue of your experiences are your contemporaries, not mine. I don't know how they ought to weigh different folks' experience. If forced into the organizer's shoes, I think I'd be inclined not to endeavor to judge at all. Perhaps by staying out of that entirely, they would impress upon the participants that the decision was truly theirs alone. I really can't say.

I do think it is important to draw a distinction between a rally inducing sailors to take passages they otherwise would not (clearly bad) vs a rally not setting high enough standards for sailors who have otherwise made a decision to undertake the passage (much more of a mixed bag IMO).

One thing that I do know relevant to this thread is that when we decided to head offshore in 2011 it was serious decision and not one I took lightly at all. In some ways, I think we were well prepared and in others we certainly were not. The end result -- we got there safely though in less than fine form -- probably reflects both of those truths. The lessons from that trip are countless and invaluable. They are tangible and intangible and they simply were not going to come from anywhere other than doing it. You can probably make a good case that I would have done well to crew on an longer offshore passage first. The fact of the matter was I was unlikely to do that then (more likely now). I'm itching to get out there again!!!

I've given some thought to trying to distill the parts of our decision-making process (and subsequent lessons) that are relevant here. Our prior inexperience is very similar to the "target sailor" of this discussion (were we prepared enough?). Our experience in the passage itself -- watching both Rallies that year (and knowing prior history not to mention learning of the Triple Star tragedy the day before we left Beaufort) and encountering weather significantly outside of the forecast, etc., is also pretty apt. It would probably take a couple of hours to do it justice. So well, see.
smackdaddy likes this.
__________________
Come not here if you have already spent the best of yourself

Last edited by blowinstink; 12-07-2013 at 03:32 PM. Reason: improve :-)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #412  
Old 12-07-2013
Argyle38's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 193
Thanks: 9
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Argyle38 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Read Evans FAQ page on their website and you'll see a number of choices they have made, carefully and on purpose, that conflict with ISAF. I won't argue with any of their choices.

By the way, Evans has brought Hawk to the SSCA Annapolis Gam the last two years and is very approachable. Very good people. Really good stories seem to occur around him. Y'all come next year.
I actually got a close look at Hawk last year and the year before when Beth and Evans wintered over here in Milford, CT. They kept the boat at the same yard where I keep mine. Never met them though.

Love to come to a gam some time. Probably not next year, but might be heading south in a couple of years (not in a rally though).
__________________
S/V Argyle
Downeaster 38 #40

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #413  
Old 12-07-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,726
Thanks: 72
Thanked 62 Times in 56 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle38 View Post
Basically my view is that there is room for all sorts of Rallies with varying levels of requirements, so long as anyone is free to head out of the inlet on their boats, regardless of how well prepared.

However, after saying all that, joining a fall rally is not something that I would likely do.
Okay. That's what I thought. So at the end of the day, you don't want anyone to be "regulated" (organizations or individuals)...but you have no interest in doing a rally anyway. I think that's probably a pretty common stance for many.

The only problem with this stance (as previously pointed out) comes when you're also one who thinks that sailors should be self-sufficient, having as little impact on CG resources as humanly possible. Rallies can obviously cause a tremendous amount of strain on these resources simply due to the fact that so many boats (with varying levels of preparedness) are in the same conditions at the same time. You just can't have it both ways.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-07-2013 at 03:47 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #414  
Old 12-07-2013
SVAuspicious's Avatar
Mermaid Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 2,656
Thanks: 0
Thanked 35 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SVAuspicious will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
I'd defer to your experience (as you know, I have one marginally successful offshore passage and a half dozen 24-48hr coastal runs so I am hardly experienced). However, on our trip in 2011 to the Abacos from Beaufort, the difference between being across the GS in 30 hours (as you are leaving B-fort) when the weather began departing pretty dramatically from the forecast was huge. If we'd have left from Norfolk , not only would we have experienced a significantly stronger frontal passing -- but we would have been in the middle of the GS when the weather deteriorated(it would take our boat 60+hrs to clear the GS). Don Street seems to strongly favor the more southern jump. I am curious, what makes you prefer the Chesapeake (Little Creek) departure? The only reason I can see for wanting to leave from further north would be for those headed to the eastern Caribbean who was to use the GS to make some of that easting (is that what you were getting at?).
Reasonable questions, and I'd value Jon's thoughts as we haven't talked about this before.

See the current RTOFS model imagery here.

Heading South I want to get East as far North as I can; keep track of where the trades kick in. Leaving from Chesapeake Bay at 135T from the sea buoy you cross the GS where it is usually pretty narrow and NEly. That means there is as much fair Easting as foul Northing. Relative to Newport you cross the GS much sooner and so have better weather information when the sea temperature starts to rise. Relative to Beaufort the GS is usually narrower and the islands are no further away. From the Chesapeake if you stay off the beach you'll miss most of the unpleasantness of the fronts hitting the warm water over Diamond Shoals. It's not a perfect answer but on the boats I sail my choices are Chesapeake, Newport, Beaufort. YMMV.

On this thread we have talked about the illusion of safety from numbers. We haven't talked about the illusion of safety of being near shore. For myself on the US East Coast I want to get East of the GS and into warmer and deeper water as quickly as possible. When in doubt go out.
jameswilson29 likes this.
__________________
sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks.com
beware "cut and paste" sailors.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #415  
Old 12-07-2013
SVAuspicious's Avatar
Mermaid Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 2,656
Thanks: 0
Thanked 35 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SVAuspicious will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle38 View Post
Love to come to a gam some time. Probably not next year, but might be heading south in a couple of years (not in a rally though).
There is a great new SSCA Gam in Essex CT. Late June this year I think. The Osbornes have been doing a great job organizing it.
__________________
sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks.com
beware "cut and paste" sailors.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #416  
Old 12-07-2013
Argyle38's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 193
Thanks: 9
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Argyle38 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay. That's what I thought. So at the end of the day, you don't want anyone to be "regulated" (organizations or individuals)...but you have no interest in doing a rally anyway. I think that's probably a pretty common stance for many.

The only problem with this stance (as previously pointed out) comes when you're also one who thinks that sailors should be self-sufficient, having as little impact on CG resources as humanly possible. Rallies can obviously cause a tremendous amount of strain on these resources simply due to the fact that so many boats (with varying levels of preparedness) are in the same conditions at the same time. You just can't have it both ways.
The problem with that statement is that you are saying that sailors SHOULD be self-sufficient, etc. but you seem want to regulate them so that the "should" becomes a "must" and I believe that is where we disagree. I agree that sailors SHOULD be self-sufficient, and use the CG only as the very last resort, I am just not interested in forcing that behavior via any laws or regulations.

Also, the CG runs missions in all weather independent of whether there is an actual rescue, that is why they are so good at it when it counts, so rescues actually don't overly tax their resources, in most cases.
__________________
S/V Argyle
Downeaster 38 #40

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #417  
Old 12-07-2013
Argyle38's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 193
Thanks: 9
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Argyle38 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
There is a great new SSCA Gam in Essex CT. Late June this year I think. The Osbornes have been doing a great job organizing it.
Cool! Hopefully I'll have Argyle splashed by then I'll check it out.

Thanks.
__________________
S/V Argyle
Downeaster 38 #40

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #418  
Old 12-07-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,726
Thanks: 72
Thanked 62 Times in 56 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle38 View Post
The problem with that statement is that you are saying that sailors SHOULD be self-sufficient, etc. but you seem want to regulate them so that the "should" becomes a "must" and I believe that is where we disagree. I agree that sailors SHOULD be self-sufficient, and use the CG only as the very last resort, I am just not interested in forcing that behavior via any laws or regulations.

Also, the CG runs missions in all weather independent of whether there is an actual rescue, that is why they are so good at it when it counts, so rescues actually don't overly tax their resources, in most cases.
Got it. Thanks.

As long as you (and others with this stance) don't mind less experienced sailors getting into trouble and calling in the CG when things are not "very last resort" - I guess there's no problem. It's their "right". I just think most in your group have a problem carrying this logic through.

As for me, in terms of organized sailing (races or rallies) - you're right, I think the standard for entry should match the level of potential difficulty/danger. That's just good for sailing.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #419  
Old 12-07-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,029
Thanks: 0
Thanked 78 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I totally agree with you. You aren't very good with math. I, like Morganscloud, am talking about the number of SAR cases in each event (though there were actually more calls than cases in the SDR itself, so even that number is low). Where the boat ends up (abandoned or towed) is immaterial.
OK, we'll agree to disagree... I'd suggest there is at least some minor distinction between the case of the dismasted HC 38 that eventually made port under their own power, and the evacuation/abandonment of that OI 41 that required a CG rescue swimmer to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft into the Gulf Stream in the middle of the night... But, that's probably just me - or, maybe that CG helo crew, as well :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Again, you're positing that ISAF-regs need to be a 100% cure-all to be effective.
No, I'm not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I don't think anyone, except maybe you, thinks that's a reasonable expectation. In fact, I think any responsible skipper (greeen or salty) who values good seamanship would think that following the guidelines and advice offered by the ISAF regs would be a responsible, seamanly way to prep themselves and their boats for offshore passagemaking.

However, if you want to be the experienced voice of offshore sailing telling newbie sailors that following safety guidelines like ISAF is useless because things could go wrong anyway...go ahead. I just think that's very dangerous.

There is just no good reason, from a safety perspective, NOT to have them. Period.
Sorry, but I don't understand where you get the idea I believe ISAF guidelines are "useless"... Certainly, they are a decent starting point. But as someone else already noted, they put the focus on the preparation of the boat, instead of the sailor... And, they often tend to focus on relatively minor details, while ignoring more consequential matters such as the stowage of massive dinghies on davits, or lining the rail with jerry jugs of diesel... Frankly, I think a careful reading of books by people like Beth Leonard, Steve Dashew, Nigel Calder and Bill Siefert will prove far more productive than ticking off boxes on some ISAF checklist...

Dave has attended some of the SDR's pre-rally seminars, perhaps he can speak better to the sorts of things that were stressed during those... I've met Bill and Linda Knowles, and understand their motivation for starting the SDR, after realizing the 1500 was affording precious little 'bang for the buck' for repeat participants... They wanted an alternative, providing the most essential benefits such as weather routing... However, considering the SDR is being run as a non-profit, and there is no cost to the participants, and the organizers have made it patently clear that they are responsible for their own decisions regarding their own passages, I think it might be a bit of a stretch to expect that Bill and Linda will perform inspections on 130+ boats to ensure they're all in compliance with something like ISAF regs... :-)

Moreover, I'd guess that the use of ISAF guidelines by a rally like the 1500 might largely be little more than a consequence of some lawyer's concern over liability, rather than a overriding concern over the preparation of their fleet... One can't help but notice that the minimum requirements for participation in the 1500 are FAR less onerous than for something like the Newport-Bermuda Race, for example... Why should that be, for a voyage likely to be twice as long, equally challenging, and undertaken in November, rather than June? Well, I suspect the WCC knows that few would put up with such rigorous requirements as those of the CCA for the Bermuda Race, and their number of participants would continue to dwindle...

IMHO, if there was ONE meaningful requirement any of these rallies might have, it would be that at least ONE of the crew aboard every boat had made the trip before... More than anything, that seems to be the primary problem with this stuff, the absence of any sort of offshore 'apprenticeship' on the part of some of these crews heading offshore, the lack of prior offshore experience on the part of some of the skippers and crews headed out there...

But of course, that's the way of the world, these days... On Monday, I'm headed down to Charleston to pick up another boat to take south - just one more $300K 42-footer that happens to be the owner's first-ever boat... :-)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #420  
Old 12-07-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,726
Thanks: 72
Thanked 62 Times in 56 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I've met Bill and Linda Knowles, and understand their motivation for starting the SDR, after realizing the 1500 was affording precious little 'bang for the buck' for repeat participants...
Maybe you've just hit on a common-sense standard for entry into the SDR. Do the 1500 first...or the NARC, or the Newport-Bermuda Race, etc. Then, when you have that level of experience, join the more relaxed SDR. Makes sense to me.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing fraternity rallies for gutted Carrickfergus club NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-25-2012 09:20 AM
Smooth sailing for Fish, Sharapova rallies NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-30-2011 10:10 PM
Smooth sailing for Fish, Sharapova rallies NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-30-2011 10:10 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:16 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012