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  #61  
Old 11-25-2013
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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I have read a number of your posts and it appears a lot of them have no basis in reality.
and how is that? you are saying it is unreal that the present administration's actions to drastically increase the national debt, harm the development of business, encourage the development of part time jobs instead of full time jobs, and otherwise damage the economy and job market has no basis in reality? that high unemployment and the shrinkage of the middleclass, due to the present 'progressive' administration's policies, has nothing to do with the economic stuation, and the subsiquent alteration of social structure, in the country?

so, what, in your opinion, is the cause of the situation in our country? or, perhaps, you think there is rampant prosperity here, now, as compared to 10 or 20 years ago? i suppose the record number of recent college grads either working in lower paying jobs, or unemployed ( 14% amongst that age bracket ), is a sign of prosperity; that the fact that a larger percent of kids, than ever, are not leaving home is because they are meeting with such financial success. and i further suppose that the president's plummeting popularity rate is because his policies are working so well to improve the standard of life and Americans are all much better than they were, before.

Last edited by captain jack; 11-25-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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  #62  
Old 11-25-2013
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

Since I really don't know what Moxie's background is, it is also tempting for me to bring in a lot of my own history and the people I've know in an attempt to draw parallels.

It's all guesswork. Ultimately the video is both encouraging and discouraging from the standpoint of the the thread's topic.

The reason I say that is that it is encouraging that there are examples of young people that take extended cruises with limited funding. It shows that it is possible to do big things if you put your mind to it.

At least in this example though, we are (at least I am) somewhat uncomfortable with some of the ways in which they manage to accomplish that. It's also discouraging in that I think that Moxie and his crew are outliers.
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  #63  
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
and how is that? you are saying it is unreal that the present administration's actions to drastically increase the national debt, harm the development of business, encourage the development of part time jobs instead of full time jobs, and otherwise damage the economy and job market has no basis in reality? that high unemployment and the shrinkage of the middleclass, due to the present 'progressive' administration's policies, has nothing to do with the economic stuation, and the subsiquent alteration of social structure, in the country?

so, what, in your opinion, is the cause of the situation in our country? or, perhaps, you think there is rampant prosperity here, now, as compared to 10 or 20 years ago? i suppose the record number of recent college grads either working in lower paying jobs, or unemployed ( 14% amongst that age bracket ), is a sign of prosperity; that the fact that a larger percent of kids, than ever, are not leaving home is because they are meeting with such financial success. and i further suppose that the president's plummeting popularity rate is because his policies are working so well to improve the standard of life and Americans are all much better than they were, before.
I guess the question is which policies you blame for what problems. To me the world economy is like this gigantic ship you only think you're steering. The direction it's headed now (in the general sense) has more to do with what's been happening for the last 40 or 50 years (or much longer) rather than the last 4. Again, that's just my opinion and I'm not an expert at all.

Make no mistake, we are part of the world economy.

Last edited by unimacs; 11-25-2013 at 05:29 PM.
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  #64  
Old 11-25-2013
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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I guess the question is which policies you blame for what what problems. To me the world economy is like this gigantic ship you only think you're steering. The direction it's headed now (in the general sense) has more to do with what's been happening for the last 40 or 50 years (or much longer) rather than the last 4. Again, that's just my opinion and I'm not an expert at all.

Make no mistake, we are part of the world economy.
that's true, however, the way a country responds to economic trends has a lot to do with how their government responds to those trends. overspending, outrageous borrowing, and printing money to cover your overindulgences is not a good way to handle the economy.

i really don't want to get into a detailed political discussion but, i would like to point out, in my lifetime ( 43 years ), there has been an increasing trend, in the U.S. towards bigger, more intrusive government as well a trend towards a larger welfare state and increasingly more wasteful spending. our national debt doubled within the present administration's first year.

so, at least in America ( which is the only place i am qualified to speak of, since i only live here ), the trend, over the last 30 or 40 years has been towards progressive policies.

i can only judge the prosperity level of the country by what i see, living here. prices and unemployment are up and wages are down. bike shops, and a lot of other businesses, are closing ( and have been )because people have no extra money to spend. construction, my field, is doing poorly and a lot of people, in that field, are out of work. obamacare is causing businesses to cut employees back to part time and people to lose their policies. it's going to force people who have no insurace, because they can't afford it, to buy insrance and it's going to raise the cost of everyone's insurace ( if they can ever get the website to work ). it's also going to put greater strain on the country's finances. to my eyes, none of that is good.

but everyone has an opinion.

so, i'm not going to get farther into any political debate.
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

I guess I see the long term decline in the number of well paying jobs as having more to do with business decisions rather than government policy decisions.

Manufacturing, as an example, is either automated and/or moved to places with lower labor costs. There are new, well paying jobs being created but many of them require specialized skills and there's not enough of these jobs to offset the ones that are being lost.

Agriculture is another example. The iconic family farm is disappearing. Fewer people farm more acres. What family farming still exists is supported by various subsidies. Those may not exist forever as developing nations complain that we are being protectionist.

I'm not saying businesses are evil, I'm just saying that ultimately they will do what they feel is necessary for them to survive. So if their competitors are saving costs by switching to overseas part suppliers, they will feel compelled to do the same.

And I don't see either progressive or conservative politics doing much of anything to address what I consider to be this very fundamental problem.

To me this will not change until some sort of equilibrium is reached for labor costs worldwide. Either that or in combination with shipping becoming so expensive that it starts to tip the balance more in favor of producing locally.

Last edited by unimacs; 11-25-2013 at 05:55 PM.
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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Originally Posted by unimacs View Post
I guess I see the long term decline in the number of well paying jobs as having more to do with business decisions rather than government policy decisions.

Manufacturing, as an example, is either automated and/or moved to places with lower labor costs. There are new, well paying jobs being created but many of them require specialized skills and there's not enough of these jobs to offset the ones that are being lost.

Agriculture is another example. The iconic family farm is disappearing. Fewer people farm more acres. What family farming still exists is supported by various subsidies. Those may not exist forever as developing nations complain that we are being protectionist.

I'm not saying businesses are evil, I'm just saying that ultimately they will do what they feel is necessary for them to survive. So if their competitors are saving costs by switching to overseas part suppliers, they will feel compelled to do the same.

And I don't see either progressive or conservative politics doing much of anything to address what I consider to be this very fundamental problem.
those are good points and you have to look at your own points to see what i am getting at. first, before i do that, i want to say, when i say conservative i mean believes in the constitution. very few politicians, on either side, can actually say that. bush junior call the constitution a damn piece of paper and obama said it was highly flawed and he would have to fix it.

protectionsism is a part of the problem. both sides do it. it's not good for business or individuals or the country.

the things you point out are representative of government meddling. from tariffs to protect American businesses to farm subsidies to buying out corrupt banking institutions, all of these governmental policies do not represent capitalism or the constitution. American businesses use over seas manufacturers to make their products because of governmental policies which make that avenue attractive.

our government has heavy regulation and taxation on businesses ( as well as all the materials and utilities needed to conduct business ) while, at the same time it does not apply tariffs to imported goods if those imported goods are supposedly from an American business. so, say Matel toys, they get to use cheap labor, lax regulations, cheap energy and materials, just like chinese businesses do, but they don't get charged a teriff, like imports get charged. what's more, because they blame any manufacturing issues on the chinese, who are manufacturing what they are contracted to manufacture, Matel doesn't face the repercussions of their shoddy products. but they get to rake in the dough til they get caught. so, they are encouraged to take the actual manufacturing offshore. the cause? bad government policy. doesn't matter if it's corporate welfare ore personal welfare, the welfare state is not good for any country.

government regulates the piss out of business ( and pretty much everything else. so much for a free country ). if you see business getting away with stuff that is not good for the country, you can be assured that there is government involvement.

Last edited by captain jack; 11-25-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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  #67  
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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the things you point out are representative of government meddling. from tariffs to protect American businesses to farm subsidies to buying out corrupt banking institutions, all of these governmental policies do not represent capitalism or the constitution. American businesses use over seas manufacturers to make their products because of governmental policies which make that avenue attractive.
This is where we are going to differ philosophically. I think our government policies play a very limited role in making that avenue attractive. Ultimately what it comes to is that guy in China is willing to do the same job at a fraction of the cost of what somebody here would. And once the people in China start complaining and asking for better working conditions, better wages, breathable air, etc. the companies will move their production to other Asian countries and to Africa. This pattern has been going on for awhile and it has little to do with American politics.

And if a company can figure out how to produce the widget without paying anybody at all, that's what they will do.

Are there policies that create unnecessary red tape and hoops for companies to jump through? Yes. Is that why manufacturing jobs have been in such drastic decline over the last few decades? No.

Last edited by unimacs; 11-25-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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  #68  
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

Take it elsewhere before this sailing video discussion gets nuked.
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  #69  
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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Take it elsewhere before this sailing video discussion gets nuked.
Understood. I don't really have anything more to add (of value) anyway. Plus I have a respect for Captain Jack and his world view even if we aren't in complete agreement.
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  #70  
Old 11-25-2013
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Re: This is hope! (3 young adults fix P30 and head out to sea)

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they tend towards the extreme left, in ideology. many of them are anarchists, as well. i was into anarchy too, until i grew up and realized that a government is a necessary evil.
You're right on, the ideals in this video are 'left anarchist' which is a philosophical system that advocates breaking the law when you feel that a law is wrong or unjust. The goal is to set an example for others to follow, which may eventually result in the law itself being changed.

Left-anarchism isn't exactly anti-government, but thinks that the government isn't an effective tool for solving problems. To solve social problems you need to take action and set a personal example of doing what you think is right. These ideas I think initially come from Thoreau who wrote the essay "Civil Disobedience" about his refusal to pay taxes in opposition of the Mexican American war, and later provided much inspiration for the civil rights movement.

Last edited by casioqv; 11-25-2013 at 08:49 PM.
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