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  #61  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Bent-
Google licenses each version of Android according to a license agreement that is posted on the web when the OS is made available. Each vendor locks down their phone in various ways, i.e. if you buy an AT&T or a Verizon there are some apps that are on it which cannot be removed or disabled without rooting the phone, which some phone makers make damn near impossible. Unless you buy a "developers edition" you're buying a locked and modified OS, and Google is quite happy with this, no matter what they say.

There are also some interesting comments in some of the Android forums questioning why virtually all of the Android phones on the US market have been modified, by removing some of the standard Android functions, to make call recording virtually inmpossible. Removing standard functions that way is supposedly a violation that terminates the license to use the OS, and no one seems to know how or why it is being done in the US market and only in the US market. But, it is being done. Google of course has no comment on the matter, and no way to ask about it unless you mail them a letter.

They're also less than transparent about other policy matters. If you want to back up your Google Contacts so you can use them offline on a PC? There's no mention of how to do that. But if you discuss that topic on gmail accounts, you'll mysteriously get a message inviting you to use Google TakeAway (TakeOut? whatever they are calling it) which allows for local archiving of all your Google online data, usually the next day!

Of course you'd never need to store your contacts locally on a PC...but I found the online contacts were not available for a while the other day, the page could not be reached.

The "do no evil" guys have their own secret agendas. Ignore the man behind the curtain, at your own peril.

"Google Glass is just a display/interface technology."
More accurate to say it is ONE VENDOR'S IMPLEMENTATION of that technology, and that one vendor has a reputation for monetizing the hell out of everything they offer. If they don't monetize this one, it can only mean ...no wait, it can't happen that way. If Mother Teresa and Saint George physically bound and gagged Sergei and beat him with rubber truncheons, he'd still find a way to monetize it.

Last edited by hellosailor; 11-24-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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  #62  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

How can anyone be opposed to having this technology available? No one is going to make you wear or even buy these glasses if you don't want them. But We live in an awesome age in an awesome civilization. I would love to be able to look at a port and have a bunch of ads pop up telling me what there is to do there. Where can I catch the game? Any nice romantic spot to take my lady? Where is the closest grocery store? Very cool. Raw bar happy hour? Let's go.

And, again, the Navionics android charts are the coolest thing. For a few bucks, I can have US and Canada. This is exactly what we want to happen to sailing to make it affordable for everyone. Just like fiberglass did.

Google maps is the best value of any app I have. A really good product for free. Who can complain about that? If you don't like it, but something else.

Google deserves the money they make. How about this. I can find out anything I ever wanted to know about anything in just a few seconds. No Dewey decimal system, no card catalog, nothing. Just great information. Or, I can go to one of their other products, Youtube, and find out how to do just about anything worth doing. What is not to like?
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  #63  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentSailor View Post
You mean you cannot stand the advertising used to support the free services you are taking advantage of? What a burden! I suggest if you ever get Google Glass, you pay for the software you want ad-free then

Google Glass is just a display/interface technology. That's it. I'd understand all the anxiety if Raymarine had set a precedent for popping up advertising in their bought and paid for chart-plotters. I even have the Australian NAVIONICS charts on my stock-standard Android tablet. It doesn't pop-up any advertising whilst using it.

Why is it people think that adding a display attached to glasses is going to suddenly make these people embed advertising in applications they don't now? Serious question.
very true...its on free stuff you get all this crap...however my point was not that. I do beleive that there will be publiicity at one point...I mean think about it

like hello sailor says(and I dont agree on everything he says but most) what if yu are interfaced using this helmet, to internet, navigation software etc...

you dont think a smart fellow at one of the software companies is gonna say hey you know what we can get some places to advertise on here...

so your out coming back into port when all of a sudden instead of simple tactics and navigation aids YOU ALSO GET ads...if it didnt happen this way id be surprised thats all Im saying...



im not a technology hater at all btw...if I was racing I would have no issue being interfaced with all sorts of ways to better my performance, but notice how even die hard technology users sometimes forget all the gadgets

lance armstrong a bad example I know sometimes went racing with no coms or computers or anything...bare bones, didnt want to know speed nothing...why? he felt he wanted to be free sometimes

you dont think a die hard racer will have the same gutural feeling at one point either? we are not machines YET...

my issue is with the dufus at the marina who thinks he is ben ainslie and will eventually be the first dufus to ram his boat in another one or onto a dock restaurant, or run some poor kayaker over cause he was so into his helmet cam and so distracted by all the info he "needs" that he couldnt do stuff correctly.

cause you know like we all know that ONCE ITS FOR SALE

there is no stopping the gazillion wannabes from buying it...

my issue is not attacking the technology or the aids, or the navigation software its what it produces in people as a result...

I agree with you...its bad to generalize...but you know it will just happen...and like others on here there is nothing more stupid than being all wired in when doing simple stuff like sailing for example...

this technology is already present, motorcyclists have similar aids in their wifi helmets and bluetooth coms etc...the debate is exactly the same

sometimes all we need is a motor and a helmet and the free wind in our hair...simplicity!
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  #64  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzk View Post
How can anyone be opposed to having this technology available? No one is going to make you wear or even buy these glasses if you don't want them. But We live in an awesome age in an awesome civilization. I would love to be able to look at a port and have a bunch of ads pop up telling me what there is to do there. Where can I catch the game? Any nice romantic spot to take my lady? Where is the closest grocery store? Very cool. Raw bar happy hour? Let's go.

And, again, the Navionics android charts are the coolest thing. For a few bucks, I can have US and Canada. This is exactly what we want to happen to sailing to make it affordable for everyone. Just like fiberglass did.

Google maps is the best value of any app I have. A really good product for free. Who can complain about that? If you don't like it, but something else.

Google deserves the money they make. How about this. I can find out anything I ever wanted to know about anything in just a few seconds. No Dewey decimal system, no card catalog, nothing. Just great information. Or, I can go to one of their other products, Youtube, and find out how to do just about anything worth doing. What is not to like?
funny how I can completely agree with this 100 percent no questions asked

I guess my better argument would be that if I had a choice I would love to always explore and do things in a more traditional manner...riding a bike or motorcycle or sailing...you know even turn off the vhf and simply be on the lookout

but if I had the choice and it was viable and economical and just an aid..I wouldny mind coming into port and searching for a nice tapas bar or wine bar to settle into without all the aggravation of looking for parking or buses etc...

especially if I were constrained by time...

I should see the positives more I guess

carry on!

oh but there is this...just to ruffle some feathers...the price you pay for googling stuff while free is that people who want to know what you are doing and searching know EVERYTHING...so while free its naive to think it doesnt come at a certain price...ignoring this is your easiest option! jajaja

Last edited by christian.hess; 11-24-2013 at 06:37 PM.
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  #65  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Google licenses each version of Android according to a license agreement that is posted on the web when the OS is made available.
Yes, and that license is the standard open-source Apache license. Amazon used the Android OS, stripped out all the Google apps they didn't want, added their own in, and not only was it legal but Google said that the freedom for others to do with the OS what they wanted was precisely why they made it open-source in the first place.

I develop apps on the platform for a living, both for their monetised PlayStore and for projects Google will not (& cannot) make money from ever. It's not like I'm new to this subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Each vendor locks down their phone in various ways...
So you have a problem with the actions of phone vendors, not Google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Removing standard functions that way is supposedly a violation that terminates the license to use the OS, and no one seems to know how or why it is being done in the US market and only in the US market. But, it is being done. Google of course has no comment on the matter, and no way to ask about it unless you mail them a letter.
I suggest you look into the license again. The Apache license in no way prohibits people from changing or removing functionality. The ability to alter it any way you want by definition includes removing things you don't want. In giving everyone that freedom, it includes giving that freedom to vendors who want to make more money from their phones.

Just as one shouldn't mistake what Compaq, Dell, or Hewlett Packard package into their computers for being Microsoft's responsibility, one shouldn't be blaming Google for the fact the Verizon, Sony, etc package things onto their phones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
They're also less than transparent about other policy matters. If you want to back up your Google Contacts so you can use them offline on a PC? There's no mention of how to do that.
No mention is not the same as not being able to or, as you are implying, being forbidden from doing so for free. More importantly, Google cannot tell you how to do this on all phones because vendors can (& do) add their own contacts management applications to the device.

When the service/application is purely Google's (such as GMail), they freely provide the information you desire. When the service/application is from a different vendor, it's up to them (not Google) to provide the information. I have a variety of devices on my desk here and the only ones that have the exact same Contacts application are the ones from the same phone vendor.

Oh yeah, and the devices that Google itself makes/markets directly? They clearly tell you how to import, export, and share your contacts from them

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
But if you discuss that topic on gmail accounts, you'll mysteriously get a message inviting you to use Google TakeAway (TakeOut? whatever they are calling it) which allows for local archiving of all your Google online data, usually the next day!
You mean the free services that you were using were searched in accordance to the license agreement you voluntarily accepted in order to use them? Shock!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Of course you'd never need to store your contacts locally on a PC...but I found the online contacts were not available for a while the other day, the page could not be reached.
See my link earlier. If the contacts were stored solely in Google's GMail database or are on a device Google makes/markets - you have access to them. If they are stored in some other vendor's application, you might want to complain to them about it... or just use one of the hundreds of free apps that can get it from the phone for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
The "do no evil" guys have their own secret agendas. Ignore the man behind the curtain, at your own peril.
Absolutely. Of course, just because you believe someone to have a particular secret agenda doesn't mean they have it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
More accurate to say it is ONE VENDOR'S IMPLEMENTATION of that technology, and that one vendor has a reputation for monetizing the hell out of everything they offer.
Yup, and that vendor has released a few devices now that don't popup advertisements in the middle of using applications you paid for. I use the NAVIONICS chart app on the Google Nexus. Guess what hasn't happened once in the time I've been using it? That's right, no pop-up advertisements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
If they don't monetize this one, it can only mean ...no wait, it can't happen that way. If Mother Teresa and Saint George physically bound and gagged Sergei and beat him with rubber truncheons, he'd still find a way to monetize it.
You know how most companies monetize devices they sell? They make you pay for them at the time of purchase. It's how Google monetizes their existing devices (though they do hope for, though cannot force, your use their monetized services). Do you think there is a chance they might do so with new ones... you know, just to shake things up?

I'm not saying Google are making Glass devices for the good of mankind or that they don't expect that selling it will drive people to use the services that they DO advertise through. What I'm saying is that the advertising that pays for the free services you use is not a compulsory aspect of using Glass itself anymore than it is compulsory to see advertising on your PC just because you have an Internet connection.

If you choose to use free services then, yeah, you'll probably get advertising as a consequence. If, like I have with NAVIONICS charts, you choose to use a purchased product, Google isn't going to be overlaying their advertising on that paid-for app. They don't now and, to my knowledge, I haven't seen an Android device that does.

The open-source Android OS for Glass is already available for folks to play with. Just like the open-source alternatives to the vendor Android distributions, there will be free versions for Glass as well.
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  #66  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Now, honestly, while I do love to chat about topics like this (it's my bread and butter after all), I think we can leave it in this thread as agreeing to disagree on Google's future decisions.

If you want to continue the discussion via PM (leaving this thread to folks that couldn't care less about Android, licenses, and vendor contracts), I'm more than happy to, but I'm not going into depth (again) on the subject here.
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  #67  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzk View Post
How can anyone be opposed to having this technology available? No one is going to make you wear or even buy these glasses if you don't want them. But We live in an awesome age in an awesome civilization. I would love to be able to look at a port and have a bunch of ads pop up telling me what there is to do there. Where can I catch the game? Any nice romantic spot to take my lady? Where is the closest grocery store? Very cool. Raw bar happy hour? Let's go.
Ah, yes... Just a matter of time before we live in an Awesome Age completely devoid of one of my favorite aspects of exploring the world under sail, and travel in general...

Namely, SERENDIPITY...

I know, that stuff's for romantics, or dinosaurs... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzk View Post
Google deserves the money they make. How about this. I can find out anything I ever wanted to know about anything in just a few seconds.

Or, I can go to one of their other products, Youtube, and find out how to do just about anything worth doing.
Well, you may think you can...

However, you would be sadly mistaken...
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  #68  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Ah, yes... Just a matter of time before we live in an Awesome Age completely devoid of one of my favorite aspects of exploring the world under sail, and travel in general...

Namely, SERENDIPITY...
OK, this may seem an odd question to you, but how exactly is technology like this going to rob you of your serendipity?

I like being disconnected when on the water too. I get enough phone calls, text message, Facebook alerts, etc in the office - I don't need them when sailing. So I simply switch my phone to airplane mode. Apps can't get to the Internet, the Internet can't get to me, and no-one can get a call or message to me until I want it... but my charts, GPS, and camera on it work just fine.
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Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

"So you have a problem with the actions of phone vendors, not Google. "
No, I'm talking about the android licenses, not the Apache license. Google is actually obligated to terminate the licenses of the violators, or under federal law they are considered to have abandoned the license and then no one has to follow it at all. That's the way these things go.
Since the vendors (cellcos) are playing coy and claiming they didn't remove the code, and the phone makers claim they didn't remove it either...It should fall upon Google to terminate the licenses in order to stop the coy games. Which incidentally make life harder for developers like you, when the OS is secretly crippled by vendors.

Not enforcing license terms is just plain sloppy, if not stupid. Look at the Samsung/Apple suits and others, and ask yourself, what corporation really wants to see their licenses voided and given freely to the competition? It is a sign that no one is paying attention to the details.

Last year there was a nooze bit about the town of Sunrise, Florida. W/NW of Fort Liquordale and home to a major league sports stadium. Apparently Google Maps was sending people to Tampa (4 hours away) when they asked for directions to Sunrise, and the mayor of Sunrise claimed he had been trying to get that corrected for TWO YEARS but no one at Google would respond.

No one harmed? Granted it takes a whole other kind of fool to not notice there's something wrong with those directions, and it is arguably better than the folks who supposedly perished in the Australian desert from the Apple Maps errors, but still? Two years, and there's no one being paid to just answer the phone or email?

Oink oink? Or just schoolboy dumb? No one at Google is minding the wheel. Even take a look at Google Calendar, an application that is part of the Android OS package. Did anyone at Google ever look at the grandfather of all PIMs? The Palm Desktop used on the Palm Treo, which started this all?

On a Treo, I can set a recurring appointment for every 3 weeks. On Google Calendar? Nope. I can't set a recurring appointment for every 3 weeks, or 21 days. After all these years, there's just no option. A ten year obsolete OS beats them, hands down. wtf? Would that really be a major coding job? Could learning history, learning the competition?

Sure, Google has earned every penny they've made. Sure, they're geniuses. And as the folks at child welfare would say, they are also "Persons In Need of Supervision."

Adult supervision.

Palm pissed away a market leadership. Blackberry did the same. Google? Yeah, there's a long list of corporations that haven't lasted very long, and juggernauts aren't exempt from that list.
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  #70  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Google Glass and it's effect on sailing

Couple of days ago I replied to this thread in a negative way and I apologize for that . Technology is a wonderful thing , and of coarse we do with it want we want . A lot of people here have been making some really good points , like sail shape . Google Glass I'm sure will be a hit with the racing types as long as it will be legal, and will eventually trickle down to the cruisers. I wonder what they are saying over at Sailing Anarchy . Their motto is Sailing Anarchy Where The Statusque Blows .
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