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  #11  
Old 12-15-2004
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This Christmas my wife and I have spent our small income on 20 children less fortunate than others they are the New Orleans getto children she teaches third grade to.We do not preach Jesus Christ to them or Santa Claus who was a sailor if you know his history the real Santa that is was a sailor which I do tell them about.And because my twice Great Grandfather sailed to Australia and started a buisness and was a believer of Jesus my dad was also and once owned the Vanderbuilts Schooner he was a believer. These little black kids have a tough life they live in a black neighborhood where allot of people never muttered the words Merry Christmas or used Jesus name for good. We are not rant and rave christians and I am not sure I will make it to a better place or if I will just rot like road kill. But I will still use any tool I can to make this crappy world a better place.For such a beautiful planet we sure have made a mess of it. If only one of the kids smiles then we have done something good if one heart is warmed by this then we have done something good.If one life mine is made happy then we have done something good. The story of Jesus and Christmas are just a foundation passed down as a guide for being kind and good when we can it is a right which we are given by our fathers and our fathers father. it also gives us the right to say we do not want this and that is your given right. So MERRY CHRISTMAS to the people who have the same belief and to the people who hate this have a nice day and smile JESUS loves you no matter who you are. And I think this is a GENERAL DISCUSSION BOARD that means we can talk about the birds that crapped on your birthday cake the blue ones with smiles on thier little birdy beaks
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  #12  
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Okay, I get it. I''m slow but I see the pattern. In 2005, as the appropriate dates roll around, someone''s going to write ''Happy Easter'' in the spring, ''God Bless America'' on 4th of July, ''Pray for those in the hurricane''s path'' during the summer, and so forth.

And for each of these relatively innocuous comments, the response will surely come, "Easter? Bah!" and "God? Not on this board!" and "Pray? Humbug!"

And then I, if I live so long, in turn will surely say things like, "They have a right to talk; they''re not hurting you; they''re not hijacking anything and if you don''t want the conversation to continue, just don''t egg them on; what makes you think you can determine the content of this board?; which gods are we allowed to reference on this board?; and what have you got against the Christian God?", and so forth.

So, let''s get it over with now: May God bless you this New Year, Happy Easter, God Bless America!, Pray for those in the hurricanes'' paths, Merry Christmas, and of course, Enjoy Your Holiday for every other holiday that will come this year.

Now it''s your turn to try to take the holy out of "holiday". And make it "happiday"?

Is there any purpose to this cycle, or any benefit from it? Can''t you guys just accept the benedictions, the spirtual side, of your sailing brothers without derision, correction or argument? Can''t we all just get along?!

But truly, best of fortunes to all this holiday season,
Chas.
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  #13  
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Don''t know if any of you out there noticed or heard about me parting Lake Michigan earlier this summer. I also walked accross it in September, YES I''m a sailing GOD!
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Old 12-15-2004
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Gee whiz, I didn''t know the lakes froze up so early in the year, over thar..........._/)

Oh! BTW

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson''s letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)
The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist''s own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God''s ways were much higher than Man''s ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.

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While giving birthday wishes, we shouldn''t forget the other major prophets like: Buddha, Mohammed, Bahaulah, etc.

Just reading these messages makes me long for the day when I can go sailing all the more. For now (while it''s on the hard), I get to do some work on the hull and replace the fixed three blade prop with a folding two-blade. Lastly, thanks to Archimedes for inventing the "screw".

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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  #16  
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A reminder: "A veritable grab bag where anything NAUTICAL goes!"

I don''t know anyone who thinks that "separation of church and state" is in the 1st Amendment. It doesn''t mean it isn''t a guiding principle, and a very smart one at that!

If the original post had been a secular Merry Christmas, no one would have complained, but talk about Jesus really doesn''t belong here. There should be a place to get away from all that!
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  #17  
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DelmarRey:

You are absolutely wrong that the bible was the guide for the founding fathers. This is a HUGE misconception on the part of many Americans. I suggest you check your history books - with very few exceptions, the founding fathers were DEISTS and most shunned organized religion. There is loads of evidence to support this, not least of which is an excellent book by Thomas Paine called The Age of Reason. It would be difficult to find a book that is more critical of organized religion, Christianity in particular.
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Old 12-16-2004
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To anyone who may be peeved by another posting on this thread, I apologize. Please feel free to ingore this post.

sneuman,

You''re wrong when you say that the founding fathers were not Christian, were wary of Christians, or were deists.

I edited out 3 or 4 paragraphs of objections to your inaccurate historical assertions. If you are interested, please e-mail me and we can discuss it further while off the board. But I will leave in a couple of points because I think they do really pertain to this board.

One of the admonishments that appear on this site (on this topic and others) is "check your history books." It seems to me that this bellicose suggestion is meant to lend credence to a statement that is otherwise untenable as fact. This also unfairly puts the burden of evidence on the reader to disprove an assertion rather than placing it where the burden properly belongs, on the writer. I often see this remark used after a patently false statement has been made. Please, it weakens your arguement. Don''t use it. But, since you brought it up, please provide the references, including the primary sources for the revisionist historical positions you have stated. I ask this because I believe you are wrong and your remarks are injurious to the promulgation of the truth, to the reputation of the founding fathers, and to the culture in this country today.

One more pertinent point. To once again quote the bumper sticker: Jesus is the Reason for the Season. The thought that "Merry Christmas" can be said without anyone complaining but referring to Jesus at the same time is offensive, is ludicrous. To think that "Merry Christmas" can be spoken without intrinsically referring to the Christ, Jesus, is absurd. It is such a senseless remark that it clearly demonstrates your personal prejudice. You just want to "get away from all that!" as you say. But that is your agenda, not everyone else''s. What you are doing is trying to bully people into not exercising their God-given and Constitutional rights to free speech. Don''t try to twist history and bully contributors to this site just because you have a personal problem with a certain portion of the world.

Sincerely,
Chas.
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There is no God; People created gods to fullfill a deep need for justice and hope. This can be a good thing but everyone needs to remember that if there is justice in the world it is because people are just. Saying a prayer is an awful way to do something. If you want to do good send a dollar or give a helping hand. Praying may make you feel good but it doesn''t help anyone. saying a happy greeting to fellow humans is a great thing,we should do it everyday. People working together can make this world a better place. Fashion with gods is constantly changing I remember growing up in a fire and brimstone baptist church. God loved me but was waiting for me to screw up so that he could send me to hell. Now god is a sugar daddy that will provide all of my worldly needs. In past cultures like the Mayans god demanded human blood. thankfully the christian god only demanded animal sacrifices. Who knows what style of god will be popular in a few years. Hopefully god as a sugar daddy will stay popular. Hanging by a spider''s silk above a everlasting pit of fire is not my concept of a loving god. Isn''t it ironic that god created us imperfect so that he could punish us for our imperfections?? A loving god would create us as perfect creatures in a garden of eden where we could live in peace and happiness...right?? Exactly why would a loving god create sin??? My questions are endless!!!
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c172guy,

That is one of the most ignorant statements I''ve ever heard. And you say you went to church. What were you doing, sleeping?

The following is a continuation from my post yesterday with references:

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society.* There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another.* Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.

Each form of government has a guiding principle:* monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue; despotism in which the guiding principle is fear.* Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others.* The U.S. Constitution is the form of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people.* The virtue desired of the people is shown in the Bible.* This is why Biblical morality was taught in public schools until the early 1960''s.* Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960).* God was seen as the author of natural law and morality.* If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base.* And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community.* The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church.* The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld.* Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice.* It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country''s.

Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or dictatorship.* Instead, it was to be our servant.* The founding fathers believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the protection of rights.* Each person should be self-governed and this is why virtue is so important.* Government was meant to serve the people by protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of social programs.* The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would not cause as much damage.* Yet they wanted government to have enough authority to protect the rights of the people.* The worldview at the time of the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible:* that Man''s heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so.* They firmly believed this and that''s why an enormous effort to set up checks and balances took place.* Absolute power corrupts absolutely.* They wanted to make certain that no man could take away rights given by God.* They also did not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness.* Just because the majority wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the majority could easily err.* Government was not to be run by whatever the majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the Bible.

Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation.* The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3)** We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas.* This is exactly what two professors did.* Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources.* The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations.* Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions.* That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible.* The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government.* If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government.* An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..."* The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government:* judicial, legislative, and executive.* As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government.* For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people.* The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny.* The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated.* Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state?* People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values.* Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality.* These standards of morality are found in the Bible.* Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?

Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day.* John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence.* His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates.* He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)

In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale.* The case said that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited.* For 185 years prayer was allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with prayer.* If the founding fathers didn''t want prayer in government why did they pray publicly in official meetings?* It is sometimes said that it is permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent.* Although, "In Omaha, Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4)* The U.S. Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be removed from school.* Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named Vidal v. Girard''s Executors, a school was to be built in which no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be allowed to even step on the property of the school.* They argued over whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality."* This has been the precedent throughout 185 years.* Although this case is from 1844, it illustrates the point.* The prayer in question was not even lengthy or denominationally geared.* It was this:* "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country."* What price have we paid by removing this simple acknowledgment of God''s protecting hand in our lives?* Birth rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14 year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990''s -- even after taking into account population growth.* The Bible, before 1961, was used extensively in curriculum.* After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude test scores dropped considerably.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view.* Someone''s morality is going to be taught -- but whose?* Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man''s ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth.* They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense.* That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing.* They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself.* All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history.* In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others."* The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion.* The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers.* Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools?* The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity.* This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

1.* Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802.

2.* John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House, 1987), p. 243.

3.* M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), p. 4-5.

4.* John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President Witherspoon, I:197-98.
.................................................. ........._/)
Merry ChristMas to all sailors of the world
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