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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
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  #21  
Old 12-16-2004
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c172guy,

You know, with all respect to DelmarRey (with whom I agree), I really liked your response. I think you''re right that the questions are endless.

But if there''s a chance that there is a god, then this is the most important and profound question of all. I disagree with your conclusion, but you certainly cut to the hearth of the matter. Is there a god?

Of course, I think it is far easier to be completely wrong than it is to be mostly right. The fundamental assumptions one brings to his contemplations are crucial to the accuracy of his conclusions. There is stuff weíll never know in this life-- mysteries, as the Bible puts it; things beyond the scope of what''s been disclosed or beyond the capabilities of our finite minds to grasp. Things like, Why did God create beings that would reject Him? And, Why are humans redeemable while fallen angels are not? And, What does it mean to be created in the image of God? I''ve heard all the short answers and they all seem a little short-sighted. But, just because you don''t like the questions, I don''t think that justifies the answer that there is no God. Let me say for the record that I believe Jesus is God.

Nonetheless, I think your post succinctly put your views out there, and I appreciate that. After all, you gave your point of view rather than shouting, "I don''t want to talk about it, and you canít either!"

Chas.
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  #22  
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I am no social scientist but I believe in reason. A society based upon reason is better for many reasons. When the churches position that the earth was flat and that the sun went around the earth it was based on the bible. The bible clearly states that god stopped the sun from going down so that the Isrealis would have more time to kill their enemys. Just to question that ideal was a sin. Reasonable people decided that what they saw with their own eyes only made sense if the earth was going around the sun. Joshua Slocum when he went to south africa, a very religous country, was forbidden to say that he was sailing around the earth. He had to say that he was sailing around on the earth. In bible school I learned about king david and his battle with Golaith. They left off the part about Saul''s sin. He was supposed to kill every man ,woman, child and animal. He was supposed to cut down every fruit tree and grape vine. Posion the wells with salt. Leave nothing but scorched earth. Saul''s sin was that he kept some of the animals!!!! A loving god indeed. Exactly what did a goat or sheep do wrong??? We won''t even ask about an infant child''s sin.
You judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Look at the bitter fruit that judaism, islam and christianity have borne. Even among christians the misery in northern ireland. Our founding fathers were absolutely correct to separate the church from the state. In old england the church and state supported each other with the church saying that it was god''s will that the king was king. that doesn''t sit well in democracy. And what do you think the poor african slave thought when reading the bible that was telling him to obey his master??? And those witch trials where a poor woman once accused was sure to die. First they tried to drown her. If she drowned then she was a good woman..oops. If she didn''t drown then they burned her at the stake for being a witch. Biblical justice???
When god strikes down those who say falsely that they are doing god''s will or that they know god''s will I will believe...again. People love to believe it is our weakness but believing a Jim Jones or a Adolf Hitler probably leads to destruction.
With reason if I disagree with you and you are reasonable we can discuss our differences and come up with the truth ,hopefully. But if you say god told you that jesus is god and I say god told me that the mesiah hasn''t yet arrived how do we compromise??? How can I possibly trust someone who lies about god??? How can you love someone who rejects your god???
Give me Reason and compassion!!!!
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  #23  
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c172guy,

If you want to correspond about all this, I''d be glad to. Your questions are valid. But I''ve been through this before. On this topic, I''m sure some readers are marginally interested, some are disinterested, some must sigh longsufferingly and a few are incensed. I have answered some of these questions before (or, at least, I thought I gave good answers) because I thought some people really might not know, but would like to know, the fundamental, evangelical Christian view. From now on I''ll leave that to others, as the subject will assuredly come up from time to time.

I know this is not a bait and switch web site-- look for boats and find a preacher-- and I have no intention of turning it into one. On the other hand I still contend that simple comments such as I''ve mentioned earlier (including "pray for those in the way of the hurricane") are innocuous and do not constitute proselyting or "hijacking" of the site. The fact is that if people hadn''t so consistantly and venomously overreacted and wasted so much ink (virtually speaking) trying to quash these sentiments, much of the misery the self-appointed censors are moaning about would have been avoided.

I only responded to this thread this time because I can''t stand people who tell others to shut up, especially considering the importance I place on the subject matter and the fact that I believe civil discourse and open, uncensored inquiry are not only wonderful benefits of our form of government but also necessary underpinnings to it and to our society as a whole.

Chas.
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  #24  
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With or without "god", sailing is still loads of fun.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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  #25  
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Why don''t we just say We hope for Peace on Earth, the end of hunger and the Best Sailing Ever!!!!! in the New Year Peace
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  #26  
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Here, here! And, yes, sailing is really special.

Chas.
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  #27  
Old 12-16-2004
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No problem, Chas. Loads of evidence (in addition to Age of Reason, already mentioned):

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."

More Jefferson
"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ."

Adams
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."

Adams:
"It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in
pretend imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

Do you need more?
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  #28  
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DelmarRey: Please see above. Would evangelic Christians say those things? It is a grave misconception to say the Constitution was founded on Christian principles. George Orwell calls it the big lie.
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  #29  
Old 12-17-2004
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The Captain of The Christmas Tree Ship would have some words to say if he was alive today. Even some of the famous pirates would seek out the church because they knew they were going to be killed would be my best guess as to why.And I think allot of them were hanged after they were offered the service of a preist. This is crazy bickering about a small statement that harms no one its only reason is for good tidings.You don''t have to make it into a political issue.
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  #30  
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I think that as sailors we think about the enormity of the universe and ponder things more than the average person. Probably we travel more and experience other cultures more than the average person. We are also probably more open to other cultures. Most religions are self consistent and if you are immersed in the religion and culture they make perfect sense. At sea on a starry night it is hard not to think about the meaning of it all and our place in the world.
Working at a university I''ve met many people from other cultures. The Chinese and Russians mostly seem to think that our supersistions are quaint. Hindus seem to think Jesus is just another manifestation of Brahma. Jews and Muslims generally seem tolerant of Christians as long as they don''t try to convert them to christians. Buddist seem to be the most open minded and tolerant. My fear is that as religions grab more and more power that the world becomes a less and less loving humanistic place.
I hope that I get to sail my sailboat to many different cultures and that they will be friendly.
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