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  #111  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsell View Post
Captain Jack, I would suggest that you go back and re- read the posts before you continue your rant about how everyone is against you. We all support the dream and want everyone to be able to experience the joy sailing brings. However, in one of your posts you stated that you could not afford 300 dollars right now. That raises a red flag for the viability of your plan. A boat costs lots of money. First you buy what you think you need, then triple that when you dig into the repairs.
I bought a boat for 13 dollars, one year later my total expenditure was 7000 without a survey.My insurance was liability only for $100/ year. The other costs were required repairs and fees to the marina.
If you want to sail cheaply, buy a trailer sailor, no marina fees necessary, and have fun. And please insure it in case you run into me.
i am not going to get into this idiotic argument again. this is exactly why i stopped paying attention to this thread. you have made two statements about what i supposedly said and both of them are wrong. whether you are twisting my words on purpose or you simply didn't bother to read and comprehend what i wrote, i have no idea. but my words were twisted all over the place by certain people.

first, i never said everyone was against me. go back and read that post again. in fact, read every post in this thread and see if you can find one post where i said that. go ahead. i'll wait.


what i said was CERTAIN people were very upset at the idea that i would try to get insurance without getting a survey first. certain implies not all. it implies some. at least, it did where i went to school and learned english.

and i was not lying when i said that.

look back through the thread.

certain people implied that it was totally irresponsible not to get a survey first. one dude even went on a tirade about how he hated people who don't 'follow the rules' and went on this binge about how he is glad his community tells everyone what they can and can not do on their own property because it's wrong for people to think they have a right to choose what to do on their own land.

despite the fact that the entire purpose for this thread was for me to gain info to help me get insured, i was told how evil i was because....of all things....i was trying to go uninsured.

now, secondly, i never said i couldn't come up with 300 bucks to put into getting the boat on the water. you aren't the only one to act as if i said that, either...and i explained over and over that, it's not that i can't come up with 300 bucks, it's that 300 bucks is a lot to spend on something i don't, personally, feel is a necessity, when i have a lot of other things to do to the boat. that's what i said. over and over. but certain people didn't seem to get that point and, i suppose, since you restated the 'fact' that i couldn't come up with 300 bucks to spend on the boat, i assume there are still certain people that don't understand what i wrote.

it's just like the 'fact' that i don't see the necessity to get the boat surveyed, at least not at this point. while explaining my point, i noted that, like any inspector i have dealt with on any jobsite i have worked at, surveyors aren't infallible. i noted this because i am confident that i can handle this. however, certain parties seemed to take this as me saying all surveyors were idiots. i never said or implied that, but my words were twisted to mean that.

if you look at the original post, i never asked anyone to judge my intentions. i asked for two simple pieces of information, if anyone had the info and the inclination to share it. i asked if anyone knew of an insurance company that did not require a survey. that was the primary question. and, i asked if anyone knew of a discount surveyor. that was secondary since i doubted there was one.

despite the fact that you claimed i said everyone was against me, i received a good number of helpful suggestions ( one that proved to be just what i needed ). i thanked all of those people and noted their helpfulness several times during this thread.

a few of those people said they still would recommend a survey, but were freely willing to give me info to help me with my goal. i acknowledged that advice. as with any free adult human, i listen to people's advice but i reserved the right to decide my course of action for myself. i still do.

the problem is, i made the mistake of trying to explain myself to those who were agitated by that decision. that got my words twisted and just made the situation worse. there are certain people who will twist what you say into whatever helps them demonize you. trying to rationally explain yourself to them, in an attept to relieve their portrayal of you, is simply pandering to the game. not doing it anymore,

i have found an insurance company. i don't need more advoice on this matter, really. the only reason i began responding to this thread again is that i noted there were some people making posts with the intent of actually helping me with the questions i posed. i felt it only decent to acknowledge there helpful intentions. no good deed goes unpunished.

again, i thank those who actually wished to help and posted in an attempt to help me find an insurer to meet my needs.
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  #112  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
C-jack, not sure Cubb has marine coverage, but they might. I was simply reacting to your statement that none of them pay and they're all crooks.

Let's face it, insurance is a game of statistics. Generally, the same stats apply to every insurance company. So, how do you expect the cheapest premium to make money? They either have to reduced the things they cover, or reduce payment on claims.

When you find a lower premium, there is nothing for nothing.
oh. ok. honestly, sir. i have that opinion from personal experience. i have been screwed over several times by insurance companies....and not el cheapo fly by night ones, either. also, when i worked at the bike shop, one of my tasks was to deal with insurance companies. i saw so many customers get screwed over by their insurers. everyone is always shocked when it happens to them.

so, my opinion of the insurance industry is, perhaps, a bit jaded from my experiences.

if there is a good company out there, i think that's awesome. i haven't dealt with one, yet.
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  #113  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: insurance/survey

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
Formost isn't actually the cheapest I found am fam was cheaper but formost is backed by loyds iirc am fam is self insuerd
well, foremost meets my needs, as far as a survey is concerned, and they are competative in price. i don't need rock bottom.

funny. never heard of am fam either. i suppose that's short for American Family?

might be worth checking them out, i suppose. thanks.
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  #114  
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Re: insurance/survey

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I also find the endless rants against insurance very tiring. I've heard them from many people on this message board, so I am not targeting any one person.

The fact is this: You either purchase insurance, or you are self-insured. If you can't afford the former, then you certainly cannot afford the latter.

But these are the only two choices. Everything you do involves liability, and if you damage someone else's property (or the environment), you will be held accountable. These poor-man stories about how you won't pay a few hundred for a survey and/or a few hundred for a liability policy send a pretty strong signal that if you or your vessel cause some costly damage, you are likely to "cut and run" rather than live up to your obligations. That's why responsible boaters develop a distrust toward the anti-insurance attitude.

Now don't get all snippy about how these "arrogant rich people don't want me to have a boat." Because that's not what this is about at all. Your survey and insurance are going to be a tiny fraction of the money you put into your boat. If you've chosen to buy unnecessary niceties like a boomkicker instead, then your priorities are out of whack.

insurance is a necessity. i'm not trying to get out of it. however, i don't have to have a good opinion of insurance companies if my experiences in life have shown me they are not to be trusted. i pay my taxes. doesn't mean i trust my government.

as far as price, i just want a competatively priced policy. why would i go with a company that is quite a bit higher than everyone else? that would be like going to the grocery store and seeing ten steaks, all exactly the same, and deciding to buy the one that is twice the price. i kind of assumed most people shopped with an eye to getting the best value for their money. maybe not. maybe some people like to pay more for the exact same thing. everyone is different, i suppose.

not wanting to pay 300 for a survey, right now, because i do not see it as a necessity says absolutely nothing at all about whether i take responsibility for my own actions or not. all it says is that i don't see the same value in a survey that some others do.

by the way, perhaps the reason you see so many people bashing insurance companies is because so many people have had bad experiences with them.
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Re: insurance/survey

i have found a company to meet my needs. thanks to those who suggested companies to try. it's time to shove off.
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  #116  
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Re: insurance/survey

[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]Post #49
" i don't have the money, now. it would be best if i can keep from spending that much money on something like that....if at all possible...at least for now."

Post #99
"This survey cost is just a step in the cost of ownership. If you really can't afford this $300, then put your time (and some money if necessary) into terminating any legal responsibility for this vessel and move on in life. There's doubtlessly another dozen or two $300+ expenditures required to get the boat into safe operable mode. If you can't handle this one, how will you deal with the lengthy list of follow-on costs? Quit while your hole in the water is still rather small...
an oft repeated sentiment which i have already addressed. needful expenses are one thing. but it has not been sufficiently evident, to me, that a survey is absolutely needful....at least, not at this point. it's a matter of prioritizing your expenditures. everyone has their own priorities. if i can get insurance without a survey, a survey is not needful....at least, not needful, at present. perhaps, when
some folks were so upset that i would have the audacity to not place a survey at the top of the priority list, and became so....ummmm.....impassioned in expressing their angst that i actually stopped responding to this thread. i was, after all, only looking for information of insurers that didn't insist on a survey or a cheaper surveyer. i wasn't looking to have the high priets of how-it's-supposed-to-be-done damn me me for my sinful thoughts. apparently, if you try to find a slightly different path that the majority take ( even if such a path exists and is lawful ), it makes you an evil person who threatens the very foundatins of society. who knew, right?

in fact, after some of the responses i got to this thread and having seen how people in other blogs look on having a motor with something akin to religious fervor, i it was with some trepidation that i mentioned my thoughts about running motorless, on sailnet. i was sure i would be cast out as a heretic, doomed to disaster and a watery grave. i was surprised, however, to find that surveys are a much bigger area o[/COLOR]f taboo, here, than sailing motorless."







Sorry for my interpretation of " I don't have the money right now" to mean " not able to afford", and also the interpretation of post # 99 to mean that you feel that many, perhaps not everyone, are trying to talk you out of your dream.

I have followed a path much like you, although I suspect I am more than a few years further along it. I bought my first boat very cheaply, as I stated before, and even doing all the work myself ended up with a hefty outlay of cash. I too did not want a survey of a boat that I bought for 13 dollars, yet wanted to insure it and protect myself and others. It became clear to me that I had to bite the bullet and get it done, so I ponied up.

My post was not intended to denigrate, but rather to advise. Keeping a boat in a marina is not the most cost effective way to sail. The lowest cost of ownership is the boat you store in your driveway, and insurance will cost whether the boat is there or in a marina.

The premise of your thread appeared to be asking how to save money by finding inexpensive insurance that did not require a survey. That indicated to me that money is a factor in your decisions about boat ownership. Suggesting a trailer sailor was not an attack, but a suggestion of how to lower the overall cost of boat ownership.

Too bad that you seem to take offense to sincere advice. Please ignore any advice given.

BTW, I used to live in a HOA neighborhood, and the happiest day of my life was the day I moved out.
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Old 02-22-2014
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsell View Post
[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]Post #49
" i don't have the money, now. it would be best if i can keep from spending that much money on something like that....if at all possible...at least for now."

Post #99 [ note: this post was by sailingfool]
"This survey cost is just a step in the cost of ownership. If you really can't afford this $300, then put your time (and some money if necessary) into terminating any legal responsibility for this vessel and move on in life. There's doubtlessly another dozen or two $300+ expenditures required to get the boat into safe operable mode. If you can't handle this one, how will you deal with the lengthy list of follow-on costs? Quit while your hole in the water is still rather small...
[note: this was my response to that post. notice there was nothing aggitated aimed at sailingfool]

an oft repeated sentiment which i have already addressed. needful expenses are one thing. but it has not been sufficiently evident, to me, that a survey is absolutely needful....at least, not at this point. it's a matter of prioritizing your expenditures. everyone has their own priorities. if i can get insurance without a survey, a survey is not needful....at least, not needful, at present. perhaps, when i am done with all the things i know need done, i may desire to get a survey just to have a second pair of eyes go over the boat. perhaps i won't. one thing for sure, there is enough money a need to spend to get her sailing, right now. if something like a survey can wait, or be removed from the list completely, that's cool by me.

some folks were so upset that i would have the audacity to not place a survey at the top of the priority list, and became so....ummmm.....impassioned in expressing their angst that i actually stopped responding to this thread. i was, after all, only looking for information of insurers that didn't insist on a survey or a cheaper surveyer. i wasn't looking to have the high priets of how-it's-supposed-to-be-done damn me me for my sinful thoughts. apparently, if you try to find a slightly different path that the majority take ( even if such a path exists and is lawful ), it makes you an evil person who threatens the very foundatins of society. who knew, right?

in fact, after some of the responses i got to this thread and having seen how people in other blogs look on having a motor with something akin to religious fervor, i it was with some trepidation that i mentioned my thoughts about running motorless, on sailnet. i was sure i would be cast out as a heretic, doomed to disaster and a watery grave. i was surprised, however, to find that surveys are a much bigger area of taboo, here, than sailing motorless."







Sorry for my interpretation of " I don't have the money right now" to mean " not able to afford", and also the interpretation of post # 99 to mean that you feel that many, perhaps not everyone, are trying to talk you out of your dream.

I have followed a path much like you, although I suspect I am more than a few years further along it. I bought my first boat very cheaply, as I stated before, and even doing all the work myself ended up with a hefty outlay of cash. I too did not want a survey of a boat that I bought for 13 dollars, yet wanted to insure it and protect myself and others. It became clear to me that I had to bite the bullet and get it done, so I ponied up.

My post was not intended to denigrate, but rather to advise. Keeping a boat in a marina is not the most cost effective way to sail. The lowest cost of ownership is the boat you store in your driveway, and insurance will cost whether the boat is there or in a marina.

The premise of your thread appeared to be asking how to save money by finding inexpensive insurance that did not require a survey. That indicated to me that money is a factor in your decisions about boat ownership. Suggesting a trailer sailor was not an attack, but a suggestion of how to lower the overall cost of boat ownership.

Too bad that you seem to take offense to sincere advice. Please ignore any advice given.

BTW, I used to live in a HOA neighborhood, and the happiest day of my life was the day I moved out.

note the words in bold. not having money right now for an expense that is deemed unnecessary isn't the same as not being able to raise money over time, as you fix your boat. nor does it indicate that a person hopes to fix his boat up for a total sum less than $300. also, i believe the word 'some' does not translate to all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsell View Post
Captain Jack, I would suggest that you go back and re- read the posts before you continue your rant about how everyone is against you. We all support the dream and want everyone to be able to experience the joy sailing brings. However, in one of your posts you stated that you could not afford 300 dollars right now. That raises a red flag for the viability of your plan. A boat costs lots of money. First you buy what you think you need, then triple that when you dig into the repairs.
I bought a boat for 13 dollars, one year later my total expenditure was 7000 without a survey.My insurance was liability only for $100/ year. The other costs were required repairs and fees to the marina.
If you want to sail cheaply, buy a trailer sailor, no marina fees necessary, and have fun. And please insure it in case you run into me.

it wasn't sailing fool's "sincere advice" in post #99 but your, above, bold underlined statement, which came after that reply, that initiated my aggitation. and, i will be honest, that statement colored my view of the rest of your post so i didn't actually see it as being a bit of "sincere advice". it started off sounding like an attack.

i noticed you had edited my reply to sailingfool in such a way that it appeared that i was blasting sailingfool for his advice. i am sure this is an accidental coincidence. i restored my response so that it can be seen how i actually responded to his suggestion. notice, i explained my thoughts about the matter ( underlined above ), in answer to his post, in a friendly way. it was an honest, reasonable, response to his suggestion.

the part about some posters being upset by my intentions, which your shortened quote made look as if it was aimed at him, was just actually explaining to him, in a conversational manner, what happened earlier in the thread and was not aimed at him at all.

Quote:
I too did not want a survey of a boat that I bought for 13 dollars, yet wanted to insure it and protect myself and others. It became clear to me that I had to bite the bullet and get it done, so I ponied up.

My post was not intended to denigrate, but rather to advise. Keeping a boat in a marina is not the most cost effective way to sail. The lowest cost of ownership is the boat you store in your driveway, and insurance will cost whether the boat is there or in a marina.
this was your actual advice. i chose to quote your advice from the last post rather than quote your original post because, in this quote, you mention your own experience with the survey issue and, if i am to respond to your actual advice, i think it's good to include it.

you mentioned that this is your first boat. that's where our situation actually differs. i already have a 20' trailer sailer and a sailing dinghy . i usually keep the dinghy in the back of the truck. i can go sailing anytime i want without having to pay marina fees. in fact, i will be sailing the dinghy at the inner harbor sunday.

i bought this boat because i want more. i've done the dinghy and day sailer thing for 18 years, now, and i am ready for more.

for one thing, i want to be able to just go to the water and get underway without having to hook the trailer up and tow the boat there and without having to step the mast every time i want to sail. it takes two people to step the mast on my 20'er: me to lift it up and one other person to hook up the jib stay. i want to be able to drive my car ( instead of my truck )... or even my motorcycle...down to the boat and simply set sail, by myself if i want.

but, i also wanted a fixed keel ballasted boat. it's hard to trailer fixed keeled boats. my 20'er is a centerboard boat. although it does sail like a larger cruising boat, it still doesn't have the unltimate stability you get with a fix keel and lead ballast and i really do want that for cruising out in the bay.

and, lastly, i wanted something i could weekend on, vacation on, or even live on. you could put a sleeping bag in the cuddy of my holiday 20 but it's not quite the same.

i realize there are going to be costs associated with fixing this boat up and i accept that. by the time it's done, i will have spent a lot more than the original cost of the boat. the survey issue is all about perceived necessity and personal priorities.

one other point, you realized the necessity of the survey and were forced to "bite the bullet", that is another area where we differ.

thanks to the posters who gave me suggestions, in answer to my original question, i found a company that does not require a survey. so, i don't have to bite the bullet.

i apologize if i took your single inflamatory sounding statement and ran with it, perhaps a bit harder than i should have. if it hadn't have been for that one sentence, my response would have been a lot different. you said your intention was just to give advice and i will take you for your word. that's the trouble with on-line communication: you can't easily tell the intentions of another and you can't know how others will perceive your words. i learned, the hard way, years ago never to text youre girlfriend anything really important, beyond short messages. it can lead to fights because your words, in a text, can be easily misinterpreted.

in case you are interested, since you brought up trailer sailers, my intention is to keep my trailer sailer until i have had a season with the new boat to see how i like it. if i find that it is what i am looking for ( which i think i will ) i will sell my trailer sailer ( although i am loathe to do it. but i don't need 3 sailboats ). if, on the other hand, i decide it's more expense or trouble than it's worth, i will sell the cal 27 and go back to the trailer sailer world. but, i want to, at least, experience the cruiser world before i resign myself to always being a trailer sailer.
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Re: insurance/survey

Hello Captain Jack. Yep, I don't like the $cost of a Haul out of boat in addition to the hassle of going to a "haul out marina" just for Liability ins. If you don't mind, what ins company did you use ?
For me, Boatus finally backed off of wanting a survey for $500,000. liability ins. But, I already used my auto insurer State Farm.
etcetera, etcetera, so it shall be written , so it shall be done.
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Re: insurance/survey

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Originally Posted by sidney777 View Post
Hello Captain Jack. Yep, I don't like the $cost of a Haul out of boat in addition to the hassle of going to a "haul out marina" just for Liability ins. If you don't mind, what ins company did you use ?
For me, Boatus finally backed off of wanting a survey for $500,000. liability ins. But, I already used my auto insurer State Farm.
etcetera, etcetera, so it shall be written , so it shall be done.
morning sir.

state farm has great prices. i am getting ready to switch my bike, car, and truck policies to them. unfortunately, they also need a survey.

how did you get boats US to back off on the survey? was it just because it was previously insured? they were my first choice, originally.

i will be using foremost. i haven't hauled it, yet. i don't mind having to haul her for a photo. i have to haul her to do work on her, anyway, so it's a cost i will be paying either way. kind of two birds with one stone. wereas, a survey was not on my list of planned, necessary costs ( and is costlier than hauling and relaunching).

it would be nice if my marina could haul her out but their machine doesn't have the ability to deal with masts. the haulout marina is the next closest marina. it's within a long stone's throw. not bad, really. i just wish they'd let me take more than a week on the dry. i will have to talk to them about that. i have a good bit to do, on the hard. i will be killing myself trying to get it all done in a week. i'd have to not work that week, really. but, we'll see. i will make it happen however i have to do it.
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidney777 View Post
Hello Captain Jack. Yep, I don't like the $cost of a Haul out of boat in addition to the hassle of going to a "haul out marina" just for Liability ins. If you don't mind, what ins company did you use ?
For me, Boatus finally backed off of wanting a survey for $500,000. liability ins. But, I already used my auto insurer State Farm.
etcetera, etcetera, so it shall be written , so it shall be done.
Here's something to think about state farm actually doesn't insure boats they sub that policy out to formost
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