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  #81  
Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

Too bad you didn't negotiate a quick haul to take the bottom pics in the slings when you offered to buy her. That's a lesson learned.

On the other hand, it is in the marinas interest to see that you have insurance as well. Otherwise, their policy becomes primary. In fact, their carrier may be the one that requires all tenants carry their own as primary. That would logically lower premiums for the marina and lower risk for their carrier.

One would think there would be something could be worked out where the marina would haul her up in the slings for reduced or no cost to snap a pic or two and drop her right back in. I would consider it in their shoes to be sure you had insurance on a hulk you took off my hands.

On the other hand, a boat owner that is going to have to strategize on every couple hundred dollar expense would be a big red flag. Boats this size eat unexpected hundred dollar bills like piranha, as you've learned just a few weeks into ownership.
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  #82  
Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Too bad you didn't negotiate a quick haul to take the bottom pics in the slings when you offered to buy her. That's a lesson learned.
yeah. that's for sure. of course, there was no way i'd have known about Foremost insurance and their photo requirement, at that time. next time, though. not there will probably be a next time.

Quote:
On the other hand, it is in the marinas interest to see that you have insurance as well. Otherwise, their policy becomes primary. In fact, their carrier may be the one that requires all tenants carry their own as primary. That would logically lower premiums for the marina and lower risk for their carrier.

One would think there would be something could be worked out where the marina would haul her up in the slings for reduced or no cost to snap a pic or two and drop her right back in. I would consider it in their shoes to be sure you had insurance on a hulk you took off my hands.
i am sure that, if they had the capability to haul a sailboat, they would work with me on that. unfortunately, they don't. the marina next door does. their cost to haul the boat and have it on the hard for a week wasn't bad but, when i spoke to them, they did not have an overly friendly nature. i'm not sure they'd do something like that for the folks at Maurgale, had they been asked.


Quote:
On the other hand, a boat owner that is going to have to strategize on every couple hundred dollar expense would be a big red flag. Boats this size eat unexpected hundred dollar bills like piranha, as you've learned just a few weeks into ownership.

everything has costs. however, many costs can be reduced if you are creative and willing to try. lot's of people use coupons to buy groceries or by stuff on sale. i agree, though, without knowing someone's level of dedication, it would be better for a marina's peace of mind if someone has deep pockets.

however, judging from the age and condition of the other boats in the marina, i'm not the only one whose cup runneth not over. if i simply make sure the paint looks good, once i am done fixing this boat, i'll have the nicest looking boat in the marina.

Glen Burnie, where the marina is, is not a high income area. it's not a slum, or something, but it's definately a place where a majority of folks are very...average working class. not a lot of big money CEOs living there.

Last edited by captain jack; 12-13-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

hmmmm on the other hand, if i am willing to go through all the effort and difficulty fixing this boat up, with my lack of wealth, there is a good chance i'm not going to just abandon it. so, that's good for the marina. and i have been steadily working at it, so there is evidence, for them, that it's not just going to sit and end up abandoned, again.
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Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
i'm not trying to denigrate professional surveyors. if suggesting that they aren't any more perfect than professional inspectors, or any other person, is denigrating to them, then i would have to assume they possess god status. humans are flawed. i was just establishing that fact. some posters seem to view surveyors in a mystical light of flawlessness...
This is just silly. Why is it totally black and white, with no shades of gray? GOD STATUS? FLAWLESS? What the hell does this mean? A professional surveyor who has looked at hundreds or thousands of boats is going to have an awful lot of valuable knowledge. And no matter how much you think you know, he is going to know more than you, and you would benefit from that. Why is it so threatening to you to accept that a guy who does boat inspections for a living is going to know more about boats than you do?

I'm beginning to think that you don't want to hire a surveyor because you're afraid what he might tell you about your boat. You do seem to go into a rant every time someone tells you something that isn't 100% in alignment with your thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
...and i don't doubt that many people find a survey very useful. however, i also don't think it's impossible for someone to do it without a surveyor...i'm not going to exibit false modesty and act like i am incapable. people want to keep telling me i can't do it...that it's impossible for a layman to do without a surveyor...
Impossible? Nobody is saying that, you're just trying to mock what we're saying. It won't be impossible without a survey, but you will probably get it done more efficiently (fixing things in the proper order) and with less cost after having a survey. Getting the survey earlier will allow you to prioritize better. You'll also be able to shop around for lower premiums on insurance, so those savings will pay over and over again. The survey will probably pay for itself, which is why so many people get them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
...it's like the ads on TV where they imply no one can possibly change their car oil without ruining the car or stupidly tracking oil all over the white carpet in the house. they are saying only a professional can change car oil. average people can't. while some people shouldn't even touch a wrench, the thought that no one should even attempt it...that only a professional is capable of doing it...is absolutely ridiculous...
Why do you compare our advice to something so ridiculous? Nobody is telling you anything like this. You're acting rather immature. Someone suggests a survey would be a good investment, and you throw a hissy fit claiming that we're calling you incompetent, or playing the class card with "haves" and "have nots."

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
i'm not sure why, anytime someone is looking to find a less expensive way to have a sailboat on the water, someone has to say something like that. is it so offending that someone might try to find a different way to do something, a way to save money, that someone has to say they have no business owning a boat?
Another exaggeration. Nobody that I recall has told you that you have no business owning a boat because of lack of money. I'm beginning to wonder if lack of listening skills is an issue, though.

I think the major point is that you think you're doing things in a way that will save you money, but some people who have done this before are seeing red flags in your approach that will cost you a lot more money and perhaps suck you dry down the road.
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  #85  
Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
i have nothing personal against a survey, although i'd rather get it after i repair the known issues. it's a financial thing. in other words, i can't swing the extra $300 right now.
It is a financial thing to the marina too and they probably can't swing a multi million dollar fire for an uninsured tenant. You having insurance is most likely mandated by the marinas insurance company.. Far too often boats in states of disrepair are responsible for burning down large portions of marinas and causing millions of dollars in damage. Because of this most every marina out there now requires tenants to have insurance.

*If you owned a house with a mortgage you would be required to have insurance by the note holder.

*In most states if you own a car, insurance is mandatory.

*If you want to live in a marina they have every right to demand that you to have insurance.

*If you want insurance an insurance company has every right to make sure what they are insuring is actually somewhat safe and not likely to cause them losses..

*Most of the insurance industry, for marine insurance, uses marine surveyors (usually NAMS or SAMS) as their means of checking on your vessels insurability. Just the way it is, like it or not.

Want to live in the marina? Then you're likely going to need to fix the boat FIRST then get a survey. If your boat will fail a survey now then no need to do one and pay for an expense you know will not get you insurance.

The old chicken egg scenario is at play here..... The flow chart looks like this:

Fix the boat >get survey>get insurance>provide proof of insurance to marina>live happily ever after in marina
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 12-13-2013 at 08:44 AM.
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  #86  
Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

the only survey I would pay for on any boat under 50 feet is an engine survey.
the rest I can easily do myself, especially after rebuilding an entire sailboat.
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  #87  
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insurance/survey

Any boat under 50 ft? Now that's overly confident based in the experience you've shared here. You've seen everything there is to see, every kind of chain plate, mast step, keel, electrical system, etc, etc? I'm not sure you know what you don't know.
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  #88  
Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

It so irritates me when people don't play by the rules. When someone says get insurance, I get insurance. When someone says get an inspection, I get an inspection.

Harborless and Captain Jack have decided that boat equipment is more important than protecting the people around them. They make their own priorities and own list of what important to them and use lack of money to skirt the rules when it suits their needs.

Captain Jack, you should have pulled the boat, put it on stands, had a survey, got insurance and then worked on the boat in that order. Either on the hard or in the water, your choice at the point.

You made the conscious decision that a boom kicker and know a bilge pump is a higher priority than a haul out and survey. Plain and simple...

I live in an HOA community, I love it because I don't have to worry about someone deciding their house should be purple or that a camper should be stored in the front yard or they want to put up a basketball hoop in the driveway and bounce a ball until mid-night each night. People know this moving in but we still get the occasional new resident that wants to paint their front door red, or wants the overnight street parking ban changed because all their cars won't fit in the driveway or garage...
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Last edited by azguy; 12-13-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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  #89  
Old 12-13-2013
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Re: insurance/survey

Couple of thingsÖ

Your boat burning down the marina is only an (extreme) example of why the marina requires you to have insurance. There are a myriad of other examples of why you need it from your boat electrocuting someone to sinking at the dock, to environmental spills etc., etc. Remember, your insurance policy isnít really there to protect you. It is there to make sure that I, as a marina neighbor, will be able to fix damages or injuries to me caused by either you or your boat. The marina requires your insurance to protect them so I, as an injured party, donít go after them as a third party because you canít or wonít pay for your damages.

The reason for the inspection is to get a DISINTERESSED third party to render an opinion on your vessel. As an owner, you can only offer an interested partyís opinion. You have already said that your boat should be insurable, yet you admit, at a minimum that your electrical system wonít pass an insurance inspection. But, because you are a handy guy and intend to fix this, you should get insurance anyway.

You only have a couple of options Ė Find a marina that doesnít require them to be put on your policy as a third party. Or, find an insurance company that doesnít require inspections. Or, pay for an inspection, get insurance and enjoy your boat. Or, put your boat on the hard for the next few months or so, correct the deficiencies, splash next spring and have fun then. Either way, it doesnít bother me (Iím on the west coast), but you might want to ask your marina neighbors what they think about berthing next to a guy with no insurance or the financial means of restitution should you damage someoneís property.
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Re: insurance/survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
This is just silly. Why is it totally black and white, with no shades of gray? GOD STATUS? FLAWLESS? What the hell does this mean? A professional surveyor who has looked at hundreds or thousands of boats is going to have an awful lot of valuable knowledge. And no matter how much you think you know, he is going to know more than you, and you would benefit from that. Why is it so threatening to you to accept that a guy who does boat inspections for a living is going to know more about boats than you do?

I'm beginning to think that you don't want to hire a surveyor because you're afraid what he might tell you about your boat. You do seem to go into a rant every time someone tells you something that isn't 100% in alignment with your thinking.

Impossible? Nobody is saying that, you're just trying to mock what we're saying. It won't be impossible without a survey, but you will probably get it done more efficiently (fixing things in the proper order) and with less cost after having a survey. Getting the survey earlier will allow you to prioritize better. You'll also be able to shop around for lower premiums on insurance, so those savings will pay over and over again. The survey will probably pay for itself, which is why so many people get them.


Why do you compare our advice to something so ridiculous? Nobody is telling you anything like this. You're acting rather immature. Someone suggests a survey would be a good investment, and you throw a hissy fit claiming that we're calling you incompetent, or playing the class card with "haves" and "have nots."


Another exaggeration. Nobody that I recall has told you that you have no business owning a boat because of lack of money. I'm beginning to wonder if lack of listening skills is an issue, though.

I think the major point is that you think you're doing things in a way that will save you money, but some people who have done this before are seeing red flags in your approach that will cost you a lot more money and perhaps suck you dry down the road.




ok. first, you should go back through this thread. there was a post that set off this entire ridiculous discussion. that post asked, in a divisive manner, why anyone who thinks $300 is a lot of money would even contemplate owning a free boat. now, that has nothing to do with a survey, but rather my financial situation and it is, despite your protestation, stating i have no business owning a boat because i don't have money. and it's not the first post, like that, i ave received in one of my threads. i post a thread asking opinions or advice on a course of action and the inute i relate that money is an issue, i get a similar statement. look through the free boat thread. it's there too. so, that started my original rant and it also initiated the conversation about the haves and have nots.

also, i am not threatened by a surveyor. i have stated that it is a financial expenditure that i do not see the necessity of, if i can get insurance another way. period. i am fine with folks advising me to get one. advice duly noted.

the discussion's nature changed as soon as i responded to the above mentioned post. each new urge towards a survey, as part of a response to the haves and not haves comments, has been more certain it just can't be done without a surveyor.

so, i was just pointing out that surveyors are humans. they arte not perfect. a survey is not a guarantee there will not be an isue missed. and a person can do this without a survey. i then listed my backgrounbd as reassurance that i have the ablity to do this, which seems to be generally doubted. why i felt the need to justyify my decisions, i have no idea. perhaps it's human nature.

if you take note, my 'rants' are always in response to a post by someone offended by the haves/have nots argument...someone who is asserting that you must have a surveyor or certain doom is guaranteed. i don't care if you disagree with me. i do not respond well to people telling me i can't do something. i have spent a lifetime doing things people assured me i couldn't do. after a while, you get sick of hearing people tell ypu that you can't do stuff.

for the record, this post had nothing to do with haves or have nots. it had nothing to do with the validity of getting a survey. it was not about trying to avoid gettng insurance. this post was about one thing and one thing only; trying to find a way to insure the boat, for a reasonable amount, without expending the extra $300, now. i was looking for ideas; possibly insurance companies that people new didn't require a survey or maybe a surveyor recommendation that someone knew was less expensive.

i am fine with people recommending a survey. i heard the recommendation several times. i acknowledged that suggestion but stated that i was looking to take a different course and that, being fully aware of the issues, i did not feel that the survey was a necessary expense, right now, if i could avoid it.

that should have been enough. advice given. advice heard and acknowledged. but, after the haves/have nots conversation, there has been a repeated attempt, as part of an opposition to the idea that there was a tendency in the saling world towards exclusion on the basis of financial ability, to beat the absolute necessity of a survey into my head.

i made the mistake and allowed myself to be drawn into this stupid discussion. i don't really care if there are people that think anyone without financial reserves has no place owning a boat. there are always people that wish to exclude on a basis of status or wealth. i don't care if no one on this whole bloody planet thinks i have the ability to do this. i have spent a lifetime walking my road with the condemnation of those who had no faith in me. and what always astounds me is that the people who spend their time trying to get me to doubt myself always say they are doing it for my own good.

i am not deaf. advice and warnings given once are enough, and appreciated as having good intent. if you proceed to try to beat your doubts into my head, after i tell you that i have decided a different path, you aren't going to beat me into submitting to your will.

i don't ask people's advice or request information because i am looking for a master to lay my path out for me. i do so, seeking information that i can consider as a part of the process of coming up with my own decision.

now, i thank all of the posters who tried to help me. you guys have given me solid options and ideas. i also thank those who warned caution because they didn't want me to engage the situation blindly. i am not, in any way, trying to lessen the help of these people. but i do not need to be told i MUST take a certain course and i really don't need to be told i have no business even contemplating boat ownership if i don't have a massd of money to draw on.

you are right about one thing, i have been reacting immaturely. i should have resisted the impulse to respond to the post that set this off. that was immature. and i should have ignored all of the rest of the posts, or parts of posts, that kept this silly, off topic discussion going.

until i started posting here, spurred on by that free boat, i had stopped taking part in blogs becauser of this very thing. it doesn't matter what you are posting about, nearly every thread on every blog ends up in a useless, time consuming, off topic debate. if you are going to communicate in blogs, it's hard to keep from being drawn into them.
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