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  #21  
Old 02-02-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

use the force Luke!
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  #22  
Old 02-02-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Okay. finally found the pictures.

Has anyone else noticed that this boat has been grounded in its past and never repaired properly?
Take a look along the port side.

The thing hit rocks and lay down on its sidefor a while and got pounded around a bit. Those are not acne scars or the marks of bad handling in the marina.

Now that being the case, my next guess is that she filled up with water and was declared an insurance loss, or that the keel was bent/severly buggered in the incident.

The cuts around the keel are not ecause someone needed to get it in or out of a shed. It was an attempt at repairing the irreperable. Either they needed to drain water from the keel pocket, or they were trying to get in to repair the stuffed keel or both...but that is the point at which you declare the patient brain-dead and call the time.
I think you have purchased a cadaver rather then a boat.
My suggestion would be to check the registers and see if that hull number/rego number has ever been declared an inurance write-off.
Amongst other things, it may mean that even if you spend tens and tens of thousands to restore this boat to wonderous condition, you may never be able to secure insurance for it regardless. This would be a bad thing. It would also mean that the boat''s history would be traceable to anyone you ever wanted to sell it to...And rightly or wrongly, boats that have been written off tend to have a social stigma attached to them that is not dis-similar to a pregnant junior-high schoolgirl in the fifties. So gorget about getting any money back on your investment, no matter what.

That makes it a bad deal.

I enjoy rehabilitating old boats, but this is now a former-boat-that-is-now-merely-a-boat-shaped-object.

Try to get your money back. If you can prove it was a former write-off and that this was never disclosed to you, then you have a very strong case, if the seller (who may well be half way to Alaska, singing happy songs and feeling lighthearted to be rid of this thing)is reluctent to return you money.


Good luck. Sorry. Consider this a learning experience. I only just dodged something similar when buying my first fixer-upper. happens to a lot of us, that is why the messages on this list seem to all be saying the same unwanted thing.


Sasha
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  #23  
Old 02-02-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Good points Sasha However those girls were the most fun ,this boat will not.
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  #24  
Old 02-02-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Iíd like to make it known first of all that maybe this boat should be and may still be scrap. I didnít build it, sail it, or mess it up. And I have not made my mind up what to do with it yet. Also that I appreciate all of the constructive criticism and informative assistance in this thread.

I will say though, that I donít believe anyone here wants to hear someone call their boat an albatross or garbage. My assumption is that most of us on this board are in either older boats or newer boats under 50 feet. Which goes to say that thereís plenty of mega yacht people out there who could and probably would designate all of our boats as junk.

And doing the armchair quarterback, backseat driver deal, attacking someone elseís decision or financial ability with absolutely no idea of the circumstances. Thatís always the sign of a genius. As far as what possessed me to give hard currency for this ďhole in the waterĒ, the amount I paid for this boat is far less than what the accessories alone are worth(Westerbeke diesel, two #55 3 speed and two #43 2 speed Lewmar winches, 53í mast, 16í boom, 6 sails, couple of large anchors, high end bilge pumps, loads of handles and hardware, etc. etc. etc.) .

If everyone shared both of your beliefs that this board exists to share our extremely negative ďhumble opinionsĒ about matters un-requested, Iíd expect there would be a lot more people letting you know what they think of you. Of course there probably arenít any of us who donít know that would be a waste of time. My belief of what this board is for is to share helpful information for us all to learn better and more cost effective ways to enjoy and maintain our boats.

ďThatís all Iíve got to say about thatĒ as Forest so eloquently put it.

Back to the very decently offered useful information and such. I have emailed Chris Rooke and am hoping to hear back from him as well as am very interested and am researching the possibilities of the hydraulic lifts. Thank you again.

As far as the boats condition, Thank you for your sincere concerns. Iím not sure what the gray splotches are on the port hull in the photo. The hull actually doesnít have a scratch or gouge anywhere on it other than the keel cut. That may be the only reason Iím even considering doing anything with it. I also do know for a fact at this point that the cuts definitely were made in attempt to remove the boat from an indoor location it was no longer welcome at.

Since Iíve thrown all that in I might as well give a little more detail and see what the general consensus is from here if there still is anyone interested:

The interior - brother is a carpenter to put it lightly, really more like an artist with wood and loads and loads of hardwood to spare. Iíd bet in a week the interior couldnít be beat by any. And yes completed with hull enforcement prior to transport.

So my only real concern and decision factor is the keel. Now I know itís not possible to get any guaranteed marine engineering assurance of condition from an online photograph. So I will ask for advice or thoughts based on as thorough of an explanation as possible.

There were two cuts made, one at the front and one at the rear of the keel, both about an inch above the poured in lead ballast. And neither cut damaging the 4 keel bolts witch come down through the central, uncut portion of the keel. So basically the cuts opened some fiberglass at the bottom of the bilge areas.

So the hull and the above mentioned accessories for a few grand. The interior at the very highest possible range a couple grand (thanks to my brother and bountiful supplies). New finish for hull and deck Iíd hope not more than a few grand in materials done myself, from previous experience.

According to yachtworld.com and others, these Irwins 35-40í all are in the $30k - $50k price range for this age, this boat being 38í.

So is there anyone, and yes I mean anyone, that knows beyond a doubt that this keel even if it was missing in itís entirety, would cost 20 Ė 30 thousand dollars to replace?

Really, does anyone think even worst case that this keel couldnít be repaired for a few thousand dollars?
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  #25  
Old 02-03-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Unfortunately trecksail, your thread has been highjacked by sarcastic humor . . . of the brand that can be easily dished out but sorely taken ;-). I attempted to give you guidance with your keel issue on another forum on sailnet and would continue to do so here. However, I am an architect of buildings by profession, not boats.

As I advised in the other thread, you are best to deal with a local marine engineer or surveyor who would provide more positive reinforcement than you could receive here. If it''s of any consolation, I believe the keel could be repaired/replaced for far less than you stated.

Steve
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  #26  
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

trueblue ...of the brand that can be easily dished out but sorely taken.You do not seem to learn.
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  #27  
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Trecksail,

While the ribald comments regarding your boat''s condition may upset you, there is a good bit of truth here. We''re sailors here, different by nature to the rest of the planet, and maybe a little off center (just ask any powerboater!).

But I think you have underestimated your costs to a STAGGERING degree.

You may have done this already, but it is time to sit down with a pad and paper and calculater and get a handle on it. Wiring at $1/foot, batteries at $250 EACH for 4D lead acid. VHF, Charger, switch gear, lights, etc. Hoses, through hulls, seacocks, lifelines. Running rigging will make you swallow hard as well. Small snatch blocks are $125/each! Anchor rodes, chain, shackles. Stove, water pump, tanks. Rebuilding the engine, transmission. Just because it might turn by hand does not mean it will run. Rebuild by yourself may cost a couple of thousand alone. A new one will be over $10,000. The list goes on and on and on...

Your estimate of the salvage worth of the hardware included with the sale may a bit optimistic. Used wiches are worth hundreds, not thousands, winch handels 5 bucks, old anchors maybe 10 bucks. The lump of iron you optimistically call an engine has no value. The mast may be worth a couple of dollars per pound to a salvage operation. Probably the greatest value is the few hundred dollars worth of lead in the keel, less it''s transport cost.

The value of the boat in "Bristol" condition is for one that has had a well documented history of care, maintenance, and shows like a new penny. Not something peiced together by someone who may or may not have the proper skills to do the job.

A major concern I stated was the lack of bulkheads and longitudinals inside the hull. While your brother may be a crack cabinate maker, what does he know about propper tabbing technique? Why is the port side stipped away in the first place? Maybe Sasha had a point regarding a portside hard grounding.

Jeff H pointed out his concerns regarding the keel. In materials alone, you will spend thousands doing a PROPER repair. Not to mention the required skill to do it correctly. That is not something you can trifle with. To hire a professional to to it would cost thousands more.

Trecksail, please don''t misunderstand. If there was some sentimental value to the rebuild project or you were attempting to restore a rare peice of nautical history, knock yourself out. I may be unique in this forum, having taken on a restoration project of my own. I mentioned I have spent tens of thousands of dollars, and I am a VERY capable and knowlegdeable person regarding boats, having spent years working in marinas, having an degree in Oceanographic Engineering and tons of practical experiance. I chose my boat for sentimental reasons, but it also far in far better shape to begin with. It took 6 months of working every weekend and evenings before it was ready to even float, not to mention being seaworthy.

If you are looking for a cheap way to get on the water, buy a sunfish. The Irwin was never a highly regarded boat when it was new. I humbly submitt that you will spend over $30,000 in material alone, not to mention the labor investment, and you will have a boat that will never be worth more than $20,000 due to its history. There are better projects out there.

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  #28  
Old 02-03-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Silmaril I could not agree more."when all amongst you are loosing their heads and you are not loosing yours,you probably do not understand the seriousness of situation." The whole thing comes down to anything can be fixed but should it?
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  #29  
Old 02-04-2005
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

It amazes me that threads like this have the legs to carry them nearly 30 posts into the abyss. Iím surprised to read responses by such ďnut-icalĒ experts (read jeff_h) containing minutia on transporting scrap Tupperware. Tracksuit, if youíre feelings are hurt, well thatís what Band-Aids are for, if you want sugar-coating, go to Krispy CrŤme and pick up a dozen. Iím certain there are several sailors out there that would welcome you aboard their vessels for a day on the water, I too would extend the invitation to you, first send me fifty bucks arrrrrrrh.

Be thankful that you posted this query on Sailnet where unbiased and unfiltered opinions are more plentiful than WMDs in Iraq.

Guys like dman and Silmaril seem to be wise beyond their years, listen to them!


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  #30  
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Creative ideas for loading 38''''er on trailer w/out crane?

Denr It seems to me that when the advice to certain questions are obvious we just keep shooting flares hoping to make contact.I am going to rebuild this boat.Is the hull good?No, Sails good No, Engine No ,rig No ,Anything ,Maybe the winches and the lead is still heavy.The only positive thing is that you may find some undiscovered animal never seen by humans(hopefully friendly) living aboard making you famous.This is the last life ring I`m going to throw.I think I`ll start another thread with"I want your input on rowing across the Atlantic in December with one oar and wonder if I should take a firearm on board,and should I get drunk while doing it any suggestions?"That should get more than 30 responces
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