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post #21 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

I know a number of surveyors that do stand by their work, what none of them really can do is insure they didn't miss anything. There are just too many places that a hidden defect could be that you just can't get to without destroying the boat.

I have been sailing since i was 2, working on boats since I was 12, spent years working in a boat yard, then on a big budget racing program, and now work in maritime law, I have even helped some commercial surveyors in the past. Yet when I bought the new boat I got a survey and he found things I missed, but the guy we used is a professional who works at his craft. On the other hand the guy you delt with sounds like a quack, and in my eyes should be personally shamed.

I would get in touch with SAMS, and BoatUS, and any other surveyors organizations and file a complaint about this guy. Missing a hidden defect buried in the bilge is one thing, miss counting how many and of what type of extinguishers is another completely.

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post #22 of 41 Old 12-20-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Survey say's.......

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I know a number of surveyors that do stand by their work, what none of them really can do is insure they didn't miss anything. There are just too many places that a hidden defect could be that you just can't get to without destroying the boat.

I have been sailing since i was 2, working on boats since I was 12, spent years working in a boat yard, then on a big budget racing program, and now work in maritime law, I have even helped some commercial surveyors in the past. Yet when I bought the new boat I got a survey and he found things I missed, but the guy we used is a professional who works at his craft. On the other hand the guy you delt with sounds like a quack, and in my eyes should be personally shamed.

I would get in touch with SAMS, and BoatUS, and any other surveyors organizations and file a complaint about this guy. Missing a hidden defect buried in the bilge is one thing, miss counting how many and of what type of extinguishers is another completely.
If you know of a surveyor who will legally stand behind his work, name him.
If a surveyor were to say that he checked out something in particular, but was unable to confirm a certain item or area for what ever reason then he should state that individually in the report, but that is not what they do.
They cover the entire document with a declaimer that states they don't stand behind any of it.
Who am I going to file a complaint with? Like all surveyors, he has put a disclaimer on the survey report that he is not to be held responsible for any of it. An "Attorney" should know that because of this disclaimer there is nothing anyone can do about it. Therefore, it's a useless piece of paper that leaves you with no recourse.
By the way I live in Canada.

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Last edited by Dog Ship; 12-20-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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post #23 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

Waivers of liability don't prevent litigation, they are meant to discourage unwarrented law suits. My business is involved in auto racing and we do make customers sign some pretty scary waivers before they go on track with a car we own or have prepared. Suppose your boat was inspected last week and found to be sound, but this week you are out in heavy weather and the mast snaps and a crew person is lost. There is no way the survey could see internal damage in the mast, but believe me in a wrongful death suit the surveyer will get sued. That waiver might help him keep his house
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post #24 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
On the other hand the guy you delt with sounds like a quack, and in my eyes should be personally shamed.

I would get in touch with SAMS, and BoatUS, and any other surveyors organizations and file a complaint about this guy. Missing a hidden defect buried in the bilge is one thing, miss counting how many and of what type of extinguishers is another completely.
What I don't get about this whole thread is that I have read it all and still don't know who this guy is. So we should look forward to more reports like this because he'll continue to produce garbage reports like the one discussed here and continue to make a living out of ripping others off.

Is the litigative environment so powerful in the US that folks are scared to revel the identity of charlatans like this guy? If the answer is yes, that's the real shame.

Forget about SAMS, BoatUS and all those other organisations, identify the man here and protect potentially hundreds of Sailnet members from him. If he did that to me here in NZ, I would make work of getting him known in as wide an arena as I could.


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post #25 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

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Is the litigative environment so powerful in the US that folks are scared to revel the identity of charlatans like this guy? If the answer is yes, that's the real shame.

In a word, yes.

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post #26 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

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There are no "requirements" to be a surveyor.
There are no requirements to CALL yourself a surveyor. NAMS/SAMS maintain fairly high standards (a.k.a. "requirements") for surveyors that they accredit.

Anyone who does not seek out an accredited surveyor pretty much gets what they deserve. And anyone who gets a completely worthless survey from an accredited surveyor needs to be talking to the accrediting agency--they take their standards quite seriously.
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post #27 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

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Is the litigative environment so powerful in the US that folks are scared to revel the identity of charlatans like this guy? If the answer is yes, that's the real shame.
In a different word: no. Not at all.

If what has been said is true, and if it can be confirmed with any degree of certainty, then the OP need have no fear whatsoever of a lawsuit.
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post #28 of 41 Old 12-20-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Survey say's.......

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There are no requirements to CALL yourself a surveyor. NAMS/SAMS maintain fairly high standards (a.k.a. "requirements") for surveyors that they accredit.

Anyone who does not seek out an accredited surveyor pretty much gets what they deserve. And anyone who gets a completely worthless survey from an accredited surveyor needs to be talking to the accrediting agency--they take their standards quite seriously.
According to The AMS of BC the closest accredited marine surveyor is in Victoria. I live almost 150km from there.
There are many in Vancouver but I live on Vancouver Island and the cost to bring one over for a simple insurance survey would be outrageous.
The one in Victoria is affiliated with The Association of Marine Surveyor's of British Columbia whether he is accredited, I don't know. His rate is almost double what I paid, plus travel expenses.
The surveyor I hired charged me $434.70. For a simple survey for insurance purposes that is pretty much the going rate. My annual insurance premium is only $287 per year. Why would I spend almost a $1000 for something that anyone could do.
denverON, I'm not going to slam the guy and smear his name, that won't achieve anything.
northptsailor, please read the thread before posting. Your scenario was already addressed.

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post #29 of 41 Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Survey say's.......

OK .. a couple of things ...

First ... That ridiculous replacement value. that is something forced on the surveyors by the insurance companies and is supposed to reflect what it would cost to build that particular boat today. this makes no sense to me and I have never gotten a straight answer from the insurers and to why they demand it.

Second ... Yes there are a huge number of terrible surveyors out there and the insurers know who the lousy ones are. The lousy ones could not stay in business if the insurers rejected their crappy surveys. I have hundreds of survey reports that say things like
Hull - good, Engines - two, Batteries - yes.
I once surveyed a charter salmon fishing boat on Lake Ontario, I wrote in the survey
"this boat will explode" a week later he was taking people out on charters without correcting the deficiencies, some idiot gave him insurance.

third ... Certification Authorities - There are a number of certification/accreditation "authorities" , ACMS, USSA Navtech, AMSBC, OAMS, NAMS and SAMS and quite a few more. Some of these will send you a certificate for a few bucks, some will send you a manual with an exam on the back page for you to transfer the answers to and some have exams that any fool could pass. I think its telling that BoatUS recognizes only SAMS and NAMS. The main difference between them is that SAMS focuses on pleasure craft and NAMS has more of a commercial bent. SAMS and NAMS are the only ones that have continuing education requirements.

There are 250 surveyors in Ontario and about 8 that I personally would hire. I place the blame for the incompetents in this business squarely on the insurance industry. I think they must be making so much money they just don't care.

There ! that's my rant for the day
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post #30 of 41 Old 12-20-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Survey say's.......

I couldn't have ranted it any better.

We have three rules;
No screaming.
No bleeding on the sails.
No slobbering on the charts.
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