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Survey say's.......

5K views 40 replies 19 participants last post by  Dog Ship 
#1 ·
I thought I would start a new thread so this is kind of an extension of the "Surveying is not poetry" thread.

Wow, what a waist of time and money.
We received our survey report back yesterday and there were a lot of error's and omissions.
There was no mention of any sails and he completely missed the secondary anchor.
The anchor rode went from being 180' of 5/16" BBB to 1/4" chain of unknown length with no mention of the 400+ feet of 3/4' line.
Apparently, someone has changed all the through hulls from tapered ones to ball valves, although he did mention that the boat yard had just serviced them.
The description of the boat was a cut and paste from the cncphotoalblum's website.
He mentioned 2, 2lb fire extinguishers when there are 3, 4lb fire extinguishers in clear and plain view. He said there was no fume/vapor alarm system present when there is one.
And it goes on and on. He also missed a pile of stuff the boat yard has already gone over with me that will be fixed before she goes back in the water.
He did mention how he was impressed by the "high standard of maintenance" the boat had received over the years and that it was in "very good shape".
But here's the kicker, he placed a value on it of $25,000 and a replacement cost of,........what for it.......$135,000. My insurance broker and I had a good laugh about that.
This survey, for a 1981 C&C32 cost us $434.70 our annual insurance premium with a million dollar liability will be about half of the cost of the survey.
I sent a letter to my insurance provider with all of the corrections and omissions that I saw and could think of. They thanked me for that and said that they have had many similar issue's when dealing with surveyors. All they really need to know is that the boat isn't going to sink anytime soon and that they need an unbiased value placed on the boat.
So now I can go and spend thousands on moorage, Yeh!
 
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#4 ·
If I were in your shoes and you live in a locale that allows for Small Claims Court actions, I'd spend the filing fee and see if I couldn't get the "Surveyor's" fee refunded. Based upon your representations, that "Survey" was entirely worthless (and I surely would not have sent it to an insurer!).
 
#6 · (Edited)
We had a near identical experience last year for our insurance survey.

But here's the kicker, he placed a value on it of $25,000 and a replacement cost of,........what for it.......$135,000. My insurance broker and I had a good laugh about that.
The 'replacement' value is what they think it would cost to build and equip that boat today.. so the $135K is not out of line on that basis. The $25K is, of course, disappointing and hurts to boot.

It would be one thing if an 'insurance' survey that took under an hour (and therefore obviously less than thorough) cost a reasonable $100-150.... but at at least 75% the cost of a 'real' survey it is, as I mentioned in the other thread, a rip-off.

I do think the insurance companies are to blame in this debacle too, though, as they don't make any differentiation between a new boat owner and people with 30 years or more experience.
 
#9 ·
We had a near identical experience last year for our insurance survey.

The 'replacement' value is what they think it would cost to build and equip that boat today.. so the $135K is not out of line on that basis. The $25K is, of course, disappointing and hurts to boot.

It would be one thing if an 'insurance' survey that took under an hour (and therefore obviously less than thorough) cost a reasonable $100-150.... but at at least 75% the cost of a 'real' survey it is, as I mentioned in the other thread, a rip-off.

I do think the insurance companies are to blame in this debacle too, though, as they don't make any differentiation between a new boat owner and people with 30 years or more experience.
When we saw the replacement cost figure I looked at my wife and said, "I'm going to drill a small hole somewhere and put the boat back in water".
 
#7 ·
Well, overall the survey came out in my favour given the value of the boat stated. I paid $25,000 for it two and a half years ago and it will be insured for that amount. The $135,000 replacement cost is laughable.
It was for insurance purposes and there was enough information in the report for the insurance company to offer me a policy.
There are no "requirements" to be a surveyor.
There are qualifications that one can furnish themselves with but there are no requirements needed to become a surveyor. Anyone who feels comfortable enough to do it, can. It is an unregulated, unlicensed and unaccountable industry.
It was a seven page report with one page dedicated to a disclaimer stating that he is not responsible for what is in the report. So there is also no accountability for what he say's and that is the norm.
Seeking my money back would be a waist of time.
You just suck it up and move on.
 
#26 ·
There are no "requirements" to be a surveyor.
There are no requirements to CALL yourself a surveyor. NAMS/SAMS maintain fairly high standards (a.k.a. "requirements") for surveyors that they accredit.

Anyone who does not seek out an accredited surveyor pretty much gets what they deserve. And anyone who gets a completely worthless survey from an accredited surveyor needs to be talking to the accrediting agency--they take their standards quite seriously.
 
#8 ·
I'd have a couple of comments:

Where did you find the surveyor..?

It sounds like you were not with the surveyor as he did his inspection, I would have been on his heals the entire time pointing out things he missed so they would all be officially part of the record.

I also would have brought all the deficiencies in his final report to his attention and made him make adjustments as needed.
 
#10 ·
The surveyor was recommended by the boat yard I am on the hard in, Stone's Marina in Nanaimo. I was present for the 45 minute survey.
Why would I go back to the guy, he obviously hasn't got a clue about what he is doing.
 
#11 ·
Actually, our insurance company does differentiate between experienced boaters and inexperienced boaters.
And yes the $135,000 is a close figure to replacement cost if unable to find a similarly equipped boat of the same vintage. I'm just happy that what I have into it will be covered in the event of a complete loss.
At the end of the day I do feel I was completely ripped off.
 
#12 ·
45 minutes huh? How much did he charge you? My last two surveys were as follows:

1985 Ericson 35-3: 7 hours
1997 Caliber 40LRC: 5.5 hours

These are only the times the surveyor spent with me on the boat. They both obviously spent 2-3 hours writing up the report and compiling it and all the photos onto a CD.
 
#14 ·
When I had my O-30 surveyed I was very impressed with the professionalsim, of the gentleman doing the survey. This was out of Deale MD Harrington Harbor. forgot his name. I have pages and pages of text, photos, and details. He even found things I never thought of, and I like to think I know something about boats LOL. It was necessary money well spent imho. sorry you didn't get a good one Dogs.
 
#15 ·
sorry you didn't get a good one Dogs.
And that statement right there say's it all Denise.

Regardless of what this cost me, the omissions and errors should never happen.
I have been around boats my whole life, I started racing sailboats when I was 6 years old, I will be 52 next month.
It is only recently that this surveyor, insurance, moorage thing has been an issue.
I have kept our boat in a marina that didn't require insurance and since I have moved away from that marina I get to deal with this stupidity.
My wife and I use our boat regularly, almost every weekend we are out on the water having fun or racing with our local club.
It is in our best interest to keep our boat in top shape and we do.
The last thing I want to have happen is to see my wife struggling to survive in the ocean because of something I have neglected.
Obviously, surveyors couldn't care less about what they do as they are not willing to take responsibility for what they say in their reports and until that changes there is really no point in having a survey done.
It's a useless piece of paper.
 
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#18 ·
My last survey was $350 I believe and he found something that resulted in a $600 adjustment at closing. Not really winning but I'd missed it and I would have eaten the $600 replacement cost if he hadn't.
I've used very experienced surveyors and they've done good work for me. When selling I've seen some surveys done of dubious value. I actually asked one guy to "lighten up with that hammer on the cabin top will ya ? It's only fiberglass you know"
 
#21 ·
I know a number of surveyors that do stand by their work, what none of them really can do is insure they didn't miss anything. There are just too many places that a hidden defect could be that you just can't get to without destroying the boat.

I have been sailing since i was 2, working on boats since I was 12, spent years working in a boat yard, then on a big budget racing program, and now work in maritime law, I have even helped some commercial surveyors in the past. Yet when I bought the new boat I got a survey and he found things I missed, but the guy we used is a professional who works at his craft. On the other hand the guy you delt with sounds like a quack, and in my eyes should be personally shamed.

I would get in touch with SAMS, and BoatUS, and any other surveyors organizations and file a complaint about this guy. Missing a hidden defect buried in the bilge is one thing, miss counting how many and of what type of extinguishers is another completely.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I know a number of surveyors that do stand by their work, what none of them really can do is insure they didn't miss anything. There are just too many places that a hidden defect could be that you just can't get to without destroying the boat.

I have been sailing since i was 2, working on boats since I was 12, spent years working in a boat yard, then on a big budget racing program, and now work in maritime law, I have even helped some commercial surveyors in the past. Yet when I bought the new boat I got a survey and he found things I missed, but the guy we used is a professional who works at his craft. On the other hand the guy you delt with sounds like a quack, and in my eyes should be personally shamed.

I would get in touch with SAMS, and BoatUS, and any other surveyors organizations and file a complaint about this guy. Missing a hidden defect buried in the bilge is one thing, miss counting how many and of what type of extinguishers is another completely.
If you know of a surveyor who will legally stand behind his work, name him.
If a surveyor were to say that he checked out something in particular, but was unable to confirm a certain item or area for what ever reason then he should state that individually in the report, but that is not what they do.
They cover the entire document with a declaimer that states they don't stand behind any of it.
Who am I going to file a complaint with? Like all surveyors, he has put a disclaimer on the survey report that he is not to be held responsible for any of it. An "Attorney" should know that because of this disclaimer there is nothing anyone can do about it. Therefore, it's a useless piece of paper that leaves you with no recourse.
By the way I live in Canada.
 
#23 ·
Waivers of liability don't prevent litigation, they are meant to discourage unwarrented law suits. My business is involved in auto racing and we do make customers sign some pretty scary waivers before they go on track with a car we own or have prepared. Suppose your boat was inspected last week and found to be sound, but this week you are out in heavy weather and the mast snaps and a crew person is lost. There is no way the survey could see internal damage in the mast, but believe me in a wrongful death suit the surveyer will get sued. That waiver might help him keep his house
 
#29 ·
OK .. a couple of things ...

First ... That ridiculous replacement value. that is something forced on the surveyors by the insurance companies and is supposed to reflect what it would cost to build that particular boat today. this makes no sense to me and I have never gotten a straight answer from the insurers and to why they demand it.

Second ... Yes there are a huge number of terrible surveyors out there and the insurers know who the lousy ones are. The lousy ones could not stay in business if the insurers rejected their crappy surveys. I have hundreds of survey reports that say things like
Hull - good, Engines - two, Batteries - yes.
I once surveyed a charter salmon fishing boat on Lake Ontario, I wrote in the survey
"this boat will explode" a week later he was taking people out on charters without correcting the deficiencies, some idiot gave him insurance.

third ... Certification Authorities - There are a number of certification/accreditation "authorities" , ACMS, USSA Navtech, AMSBC, OAMS, NAMS and SAMS and quite a few more. Some of these will send you a certificate for a few bucks, some will send you a manual with an exam on the back page for you to transfer the answers to and some have exams that any fool could pass. I think its telling that BoatUS recognizes only SAMS and NAMS. The main difference between them is that SAMS focuses on pleasure craft and NAMS has more of a commercial bent. SAMS and NAMS are the only ones that have continuing education requirements.

There are 250 surveyors in Ontario and about 8 that I personally would hire. I place the blame for the incompetents in this business squarely on the insurance industry. I think they must be making so much money they just don't care.

There ! that's my rant for the day :)
 
#31 ·
I'm a marine engineer with 40 years experience and I kind of have to agree with boatpoker. There are however some very good surveyors out there that I have a lot of respect for. If I were going to hire someone, I would want to know what their background is to qualify them as knowing what to look for, more than the certificate.

I usually only get involved when there is serious damage to a boat that I engineered in the first place. It usually involves a collision with another vessel or else a substantial immovable object. In those cases, I really wouldn't expect a surveyor to do anything more than document the extent of the damage.

However, the other time I often become involved is when the surveyor finds a "hidden defect" often with a moisture meter. The first thing I do is look on the inside of the boat where they got the "suspect reading". Half the time there is a water tank or a bottle of some kind of liquid there. They find "voids" in the laminate where it transitions from core to solid or where there is a stringer, floor, or bulkhead on the opposite side.

I think a surveyor should be able to accurately detect most problems in the hull and deck & rigging, check out the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. They should be able to tell you if more involved tests are warranted. If the report came up missing obvious problems and incorrect information, why would you pay them?
 
#32 ·
I'm a marine engineer with 40 years experience and I kind of have to agree with boatpoker. There are however some very good surveyors out there that I have a lot of respect for. If I were going to hire someone, I would want to know what their background is to qualify them as knowing what to look for, more than the certificate.

I usually only get involved when there is serious damage to a boat that I engineered in the first place. It usually involves a collision with another vessel or else a substantial immovable object. In those cases, I really wouldn't expect a surveyor to do anything more than document the extent of the damage.

However, the other time I often become involved is when the surveyor finds a "hidden defect" often with a moisture meter. The first thing I do is look on the inside of the boat where they got the "suspect reading". Half the time there is a water tank or a bottle of some kind of liquid there. They find "voids" in the laminate where it transitions from core to solid or where there is a stringer, floor, or bulkhead on the opposite side.

I think a surveyor should be able to accurately detect most problems in the hull and deck & rigging, check out the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. They should be able to tell you if more involved tests are warranted. If the report came up missing obvious problems and incorrect information, why would you pay them?
In the end the report achieved what we wanted, insurance.
Would you give a customer a survey report without receiving payment first?
 
#33 ·
Dog Ship,

I am not a surveyor, but I never ask for final payment until my services are rendered and the client is satisfied with what he received. In the case of a damaged boat, that would usually be we written report of the repair procedure along with any drawings or testing required. In some cases, the procedure must be plan approved by an agency like GL or DNV. I have never had a client not pay me.

Foxy
 
#34 ·
I never refuse payment in advance of the report but do not require it. I issue the report in a locked draft format by email that may be read but not printed. No bank or insurance company will accept a report in this format
(Like the survey sample reports on my website).

This serves two purposes, one - It proves I have done the work and now deserve payment. two - it gives me a chance to make corrections (yes ! I do occasionally make mistakes) and provide more detail if an issue is not understood.

I have done insurance surveys for people who don't want to pay me when they find they cannot get insurance due to problems I have discovered and reported on..... it's my fault they can't insure an unsafe boat !

On occasion I have found it hard to collect on pre-purchase surveys because I found enough issues that the buyer walks and decides he shouldn't have to pay because he did not buy the boat (twisted logic).

Over the years I have taken about 12 people to small claims court to get paid. Curiously (or not :) ) all but one was a lawyer. If I find out my client is a lawyer, this is the only time I want cash up front, no cheques thank you.
 
#36 ·
i never refuse payment in advance of the report but do not require it. I issue the report in a locked draft format by email that may be read but not printed. No bank or insurance company will accept a report in this format
(like the survey sample reports on my website).

This serves two purposes, one - it proves i have done the work and now deserve payment. Two - it gives me a chance to make corrections (yes ! I do occasionally make mistakes) and provide more detail if an issue is not understood.

I have done insurance surveys for people who don't want to pay me when they find they cannot get insurance due to problems i have discovered and reported on..... It's my fault they can't insure an unsafe boat !

On occasion i have found it hard to collect on pre-purchase surveys because i found enough issues that the buyer walks and decides he shouldn't have to pay because he did not buy the boat (twisted logic).

over the years i have taken about 12 people to small claims court to get paid. Curiously (or not :) ) all but one was a lawyer. If i find out my client is a lawyer, this is the only time i want cash up front, no cheques thank you
.

Bing! Bing! Bing! Winner!!!
 
#37 ·
PCP,
Thermography and radiography are used a lot now to diagnose the extent of problems that used to require digging in with a hole saw or grinder. It works in some situations but not all.
Boatpoker,
I understand the issues you face are different. My clients own the boat and face an expensive repair that requires an engineering evaluation and repair procedure. Or else my client is a builder who wants to make sure that the surveyor found a legitimate issue. If so they want it fixed right and also want to know if it's something that may recur on other boats.

Hard to believe that people don't want to pay you for finding a problem that would have cost them many thousands of dollars. But in the boat business you soon learn to size up potential clients and just be too busy to work for the ones that you have to count your fingers after shaking hands with.
 
#38 ·
PCP,
Thermography and radiography are used a lot now to diagnose the extent of problems that used to require digging in with a hole saw or grinder. It works in some situations but not all.
...
I said it was being patented so obviously is not anything being used on surveys. Not thermography neither radiography. I now basically how it works but I cannot say anything about it till the patent is completed;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#39 ·
We had a very similar experience with our survey. There were things mentioned on the survey that our boat wasn't even equipped with and it seemed the whole survey was originally used on a different boat that he went in and changed as many things as he could to seem like it was of our boat.

For a moment, I thought you must have been speaking of the surveyor we used until I realized that yours wasn't from Fort Lauderdale. We paid $20 per foot that should have included a sea trial. I asked him if we were going to get a price break since there was no sea trial granted, and he said since the boat was in such bad shape, he was going to still charge us the same price because the survey was to be so "extensive".

He assessed the boat in "restorable" condition which should have placed a value of $50,000 to $75,000 but in his assessed value of the boat, he said it was worth $120k. When asked about why he placed it in "restorable" condition but assessed its value at 120k, he said that boat was worth it. Well if its worth 120k, then obviously the condition should have been "fair" seeing as that would have placed it in the correct appraised value.

In the end, the survey wasn't worth the paper it was written on and we should have never hired him to begin with - another one of those "money" lessons that I'm getting tired of learning.
 
#40 ·
Boatpoker,

Please do me a favor and report those attorneys to the local bar association. We spend a huge amount of time, effort, and money here enforcing ethics rules on our attorneys, and I hate hearing stories like this. A few complaints like this and I can promise you they won't be attorneys for long.

At least here in Louisiana this is ground for suspension if not disbarment.
 
#41 ·
Boatpoker,

Please do me a favor and report those attorneys to the local bar association. We spend a huge amount of time, effort, and money here enforcing ethics rules on our attorneys, and I hate hearing stories like this. A few complaints like this and I can promise you they won't be attorneys for long.

At least here in Louisiana this is ground for suspension if not disbarment.
In all fairness, the last time I checked, a lawyer is allowed to take someone to court.
Complaining to "The old boys club", aka; The Canadian Bar Association will get you nowhere. They take care of their own.
If there ever is an issue with a lawyer in Canada it would be the Crown Prosecutor's responsibility to bring it to the attention of the Courts, the Judge in the matter would deal with it accordingly.
Canadian law is based on the old British Common Law system. It's processes go way back.
 
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