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post #21 of 121 Old 01-18-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: why so long?

for what it's worth, judging by the images i can find of the underside, including the one i have of mine ( when it was in too shallow water at high tide. long story. it's in another thread ), it appears that 3/4 of my rudder area is aft the stern post. not totally balanced but not terrible. i suppose it would be a trial and error thing, to figure out how much shortening the tiller would affect handling.

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post #22 of 121 Old 01-18-2014
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Re: why so long?

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wow. that's kind of tragic, really.

yeah. i was referring to used boat ads. there aren't a lot of these out there. you tend to see sailing pics of boats that are either unique or belong to a large 'fleet' of boats. for instance, there are tons of pictures of lasers sailing. and you can find pictures of the Bluenose sailing.
No one died.

A week or so later, friend and I were at a dinner party telling the story and all that we did wrong or that went wrong. Like not leaving keys in his car. And he was saying something about me losing my camera and a paddle... i reminded him, that no one died. or even got hurt.

And there was a nice guy who showed up and dragged us to shore so we could bail... re-affirming my belief in mankind.

I think the smaller the boat, the more likely you will see it under sail.

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post #23 of 121 Old 01-18-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: why so long?

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No one died.

A week or so later, friend and I were at a dinner party telling the story and all that we did wrong or that went wrong. Like not leaving keys in his car. And he was saying something about me losing my camera and a paddle... i reminded him, that no one died. or even got hurt.

And there was a nice guy who showed up and dragged us to shore so we could bail... re-affirming my belief in mankind.

I think the smaller the boat, the more likely you will see it under sail.
possibly so. i love my holiday 20 but, i have sailed my 9' dinnghy 95% more. of course, a part of that is transportation to the water. for a part of the time i owned the holiday, which is a trailer sailer, i had no way to pull a trailer. but, even when i did, it was easier to get the dinghy out on the water. not that i don't love my dinghy ( my girlfriend loves my dingy, to, but that's a different spelling ). i do. it's an awesome handling boat. really fun to sail. but access makes the difference. i hope that it will be far easier to get to sail my cal. it's already on the water. no trailer. no mast raising. no rigging. no launch or retrieval. and it's only 15 min from my girlfriend's house. the holiday is around an hour from lake marburg and from the bay. plus, i can sleep on the cal and don't have to leave it by dark ( you'd get locked in at marburg if you weren't out by dark. happened to me. i'm not good at leaving the water.).
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post #24 of 121 Old 01-19-2014
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Re: why so long?

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i believe the boats originally came with that tiller. i, also, would prefer a shorter tiller with an extension. but, i do see the point for a longer tiller for solo sailing. however, the traveler is in the stern, so the mainsail's control lines are all easily reached from the stern. also, there are winches, for the jib, close to the stern. i think it could be easily single handed with a shorter tiller. it is true that the longer tiller would allow a solo sailer to sit closer to the cabin, moving his weight forward for up wind sailing. but, in a boat that weighs 5400#, i am not sure how much the weight of one person would affect the handling.

faster added the more technical points to my post but basically youde be surprised HOW MUCH your wieght influences your boat by changing positions

like I said before your cal 27 has a very active racing scene at clubs and stuff and a long tiller is preffered for the reasons mentioned...on boats like the j24 I even like to sit on the coaming as helmsman on reaches and pointing as you want most of the weight to windward to keep the boat FLAT

flat is fast and using your weight to help the keel if you will does wonders

but like said before and by others since you have crew a smaller or shorter tiller will clear up your cockpit a bit and be more user and crew friendly

especially sinceyour controls are mostly AFT

cheers

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post #25 of 121 Old 01-19-2014
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Re: why so long?

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Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
for what it's worth, judging by the images i can find of the underside, including the one i have of mine ( when it was in too shallow water at high tide. long story. it's in another thread ), it appears that 3/4 of my rudder area is aft the stern post. not totally balanced but not terrible. i suppose it would be a trial and error thing, to figure out how much shortening the tiller would affect handling.
Jack that sounds like a typical balanced rudder.. Balanced rudders don't split the blade area 50/50 across the rudder post.. the forward balancing tab is typically 20% of the chord or less, so that sounds good. Rudders that become hard to control at times typically have the stock right at the leading edge like barn door rudders on full keels.

Too much balancing tab and you'd have no 'feel', and also with an inboard propwash can act on the balancing tab with enough force to make it hard to hold the tiller straight under power. Too much area and it can be a problem (similar to trying to hold a tiller straight when you're backing up with speed).

btw.. with the tiller 'longish' and sailing alone, I'd really give some thought to moving the traveller to the front of the cockpit as shown in your other thread.
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post #26 of 121 Old 01-19-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: why so long?

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Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
faster added the more technical points to my post but basically youde be surprised HOW MUCH your wieght influences your boat by changing positions

like I said before your cal 27 has a very active racing scene at clubs and stuff
that's interesting. are there any pics, from that scene? it's so hard to find pics or info about this specific cal27. lots of stuff about the 2-27. not much on these. is there a race association for these? that would be a wealth of info.


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and a long tiller is preffered for the reasons mentioned...on boats like the j24 I even like to sit on the coaming as helmsman on reaches and pointing as you want most of the weight to windward to keep the boat FLAT

flat is fast and using your weight to help the keel if you will does wonders

but like said before and by others since you have crew a smaller or shorter tiller will clear up your cockpit a bit and be more user and crew friendly

especially sinceyour controls are mostly AFT

cheers
yeah. that was my thought. since there are two of us, i would only be sitting so far forwards. but, one of the reasons i am not hot to swap to a wheel is weight placement.

The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.---Captain Jack Sparrow


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post #27 of 121 Old 01-19-2014
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Re: why so long?

You might be over thinking this...the leverage is very easy to test just hold the tiller closer shorter and see how hard it is to control and then cut off what you aren't using then use that as your model for a new one...
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post #28 of 121 Old 01-19-2014
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Re: why so long?

In "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding", George shows how to convert tiller to wheel steering without breaking the bank, and even keeping the tiller. (He also has lots of other DIY stuff you might find interesting/useful. )

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post #29 of 121 Old 01-19-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: why so long?

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Jack that sounds like a typical balanced rudder.. Balanced rudders don't split the blade area 50/50 across the rudder post.. the forward balancing tab is typically 20% of the chord or less, so that sounds good. Rudders that become hard to control at times typically have the stock right at the leading edge like barn door rudders on full keels.

Too much balancing tab and you'd have no 'feel', and also with an inboard propwash can act on the balancing tab with enough force to make it hard to hold the tiller straight under power. Too much area and it can be a problem (similar to trying to hold a tiller straight when you're backing up with speed).
i have seen rudders with the stern post a little farther towards the middle than mine. maybe 1/3 of the way in. that's what i was thinking about. actually, this will be my first boat with a balanced rudder. the holiday is transom hung, like the dinghy.

a 50/50 set up wouldn't really work.

it's like a motorcycle front end. if you draw a line through the neck of the frame, where the bolt that the front end pivots on passes through, and you drop a perpendicular line through the center of the axle, the line through the axle should touch the ground after the point where the line thrugh the neck does. this is called positive trail. it's much like the 'crazy wheels' on an office chair. the wheel is litterally being pulled along by the force from the rear wheel, which is passing through the frame to the neck. this force must lead to a point farther forwards than the point where the tire touches the road. if it doesn't, if these points are reversed even a little, you get negative trail. the bike will not track in a straight line. what i like to call the death wobbles.

if you have too much trail, as in a poorly designed chopper front end, you get a bike that goes straight, well, but is hard to turn at low speed. my chopper is raked out pretty far; around 50 degrees. however, i know a bit about front end design and i took steps to counter this and reduce the trail. it has very little trail, even with the long front end, so it handles low speed turns like a stock bike while maintaining high speed straight line stability.

a rudder is like that. the force of the boat needs to be forwards of the center point of the pivot. if it is very far forwards, like a transom hung rudder, you get a lot of trail which makes it harder to turn. too little trail and it loses stability; what you would refer to as 'feel'. if you had no trail or reverse trail it woud be hard or even impossible to go straight because the boat would be pushing the rudder, rather than pulling it, through the water. imagine turning a crazy wheel backwards and then trying to push the chair across the floor. the wheel would immediately snap around so it was trailing the pivot point.

Quote:
btw.. with the tiller 'longish' and sailing alone, I'd really give some thought to moving the traveller to the front of the cockpit as shown in your other thread.
i won't be sailing alone, most of the time. the outboard equipped versions of this boat do have the traveler behind the companionway. really don't know that i would like that set up...although you aren't the only person to suggest that. i am used to having the main rigged to the stern. it's something i will give consideration to, since so many experienced people have suggested it, but i won't be changing it til after i have some time sailing it, as is.

The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.---Captain Jack Sparrow


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Last edited by captain jack; 01-19-2014 at 12:25 PM.
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post #30 of 121 Old 01-19-2014
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Re: why so long?

Tiller pressure can be greatly reduced by good rig tuning, good sail trim (i.e., reducing any imbalance between the pressures on the mainsail and jib), timely reefing of sails, reducing heeling, good helmsmanship, etc. If you eliminate all those causes of excess tiller pressure, then you will be able to get by with a shorter tiller.
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