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  #81  
Old 02-02-2014
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Re: why so long?

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Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
it had been suggested. i wasn't planning on it, though. too many components to go wrong. as i mentioned, deck access would be an issue. but the biggest thing is that, as the original suggestion noted, the wheels would be small; requiring a lot of gear reduction. really big gears on back of the wheels and small grear at the rudder. and it would, most definately, be overkill, here.

besides, i don't want to stand and steer. and it wouldn't be comfortable to sit and steer with that set up.

but the whole thing of far (a) forward wheel(s) got brought up twice so i figured it wouldn't hurt to address it.

i am going to try to shorten the tiller and stick with that. but i have a plan for if i decide i want to go a wheel. it's a plan that won't cost me a fortune and one that i can fabricate, myself.
(humor)
Actually, instead of mechanical linkages, I was thinking of a block and tackle system with multi-part purchase to gain mechanical advantage.....

DANG! --- we really could use a tongue-in-cheek smilie ---
(/humor)
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  #82  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Yes, there are instructions for Doing this very thing on internet. It was used in years
past and maybe by Captain Bligh on the Bounty .
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  #83  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

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Yes, there are instructions for Doing this very thing on internet. It was used in years
past and maybe by Captain Bligh on the Bounty .
links?
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  #84  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manatee View Post
(humor)
Actually, instead of mechanical linkages, I was thinking of a block and tackle system with multi-part purchase to gain mechanical advantage.....

DANG! --- we really could use a tongue-in-cheek smilie ---
(/humor)
Well, I have never seen such a set up employed as part of a steering system on any modern boat, other than as part of a connection of a windvane to a wheel... Probably, for good reason... :-)

The desire to inject and configure needlessly complex solutions to problems that shouldn't exist to begin with, never ceases to amaze... :-)

That tiller can easily be shortened considerably... Keep in mind, any tillerpilot that might be used on that boat, will likely attach to the tiller at a point only 18 inches forward of the rudder post...
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  #85  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

That tiller can easily be shortened considerably... Keep in mind, any tillerpilot that might be used on that boat, will likely attach to the tiller at a point only 18 inches forward of the rudder post...
that's a rather useful piece of information. i should think some sort of tiller lock or tiller pilot would be a needful thing to have.


as far as wheels go, i have an idea that i haven't seen anywhere, yet.

everyone uses a quadrant, or tries to find a way to take the bugs out of a very short tiller in place of a quadrant, with lines leading to blocks on the side and then back in to the pedestal and up to the wheel. but why?

why not use a pull/pull system? instead of a set up that, basically, puts the pull point in front of the rudder post, like a tiller does, why not mount a T, perpendicular to the direction of a normal tiller, to the top of the rudder post? a line could go directly from each side of the T to the blocks, at the base of the pedestal, then up to the wheel.

each line would have positive pull until the end of the T faced directly to the block pulling it. of course, you never need to turn the rudder that far. so, you have stops at certain points near the base of the rudder, to stop it from turning too far. the blocks at the base of the pedestal could be fairly close together. it would always have positive pull. it would be a 'closed' system, like the throttles on modern motorcycles. the pulling cable actine like the throttle cable while the other acted as the return cable.

any thoughts about that? reasons it might not work as i think it would? seems simple enough to me. but, maybe i am missing something. if no one can find a flaw in this design, i will use it if i decide to do a wheel.

a similar set up would be to use a 'sideways' short tiller, essentially just one side of said T, with a solid, adjustable, connector rod linking it to another arm at the bottom of a vertical shaft running through the pedestal. it would be, basically, a wheel version of the scandinavial push pull rudders that you see on faerings. te only drawback i see to this, compared to the above cable idea, is that you do need bevel or mitre gears at the top to meet up with the horizontal wheel shaft. the cable set up doesn't need that. but the completely solid nature of this set up would be more durable.

although, personally, i think the ease of manufacture and low cost of parts for the above cable system would outweight the benefits of a non-cable system. the costliest part of the cable system would be a used wheel from ebay. other than that, you would need a motorcycle drive sprocket, a smallish length of motorcycle chain, two blocks, and some steel to weld up the T fitting. the pedestal could be fabricated from heavy gauge PVC pipe. you'd also need a short bit of round stock, for the wheel shaft, and two bearings for it to ride on. probably cost less that $200 for everything plus a bottle of rum to drink while you sat back and looked on the finished product with a smile on your face.
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Last edited by captain jack; 02-03-2014 at 11:30 AM.
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  #86  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I have never seen such a set up employed as part of a steering system on any modern boat, other than as part of a connection of a windvane to a wheel... Probably, for good reason... :-)

The desire to inject and configure needlessly complex solutions to problems that shouldn't exist to begin with, never ceases to amaze... :-)

That tiller can easily be shortened considerably... Keep in mind, any tillerpilot that might be used on that boat, will likely attach to the tiller at a point only 18 inches forward of the rudder post...
You poor, deprived, benighted young whippersnappers never heard of Rube Goldberg?

Rube Goldberg : Home of the Official Rube Goldberg Machine Contests

13 Crazy Genius Rube Goldberg Machines
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  #87  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manatee View Post
You poor, deprived, benighted young whippersnappers never heard of Rube Goldberg?

Rube Goldberg : Home of the Official Rube Goldberg Machine Contests

13 Crazy Genius Rube Goldberg Machines
i would tend to think that power doors and power windows, on a car, are good examples of making a simple thing far more complicated and expensive than is necessary...and everyone accepts them as being a good idea

heck, electric starters on a motorcyle are another good example. i got rid of my electric starter and run my chopper kick start only. think about it. a kick starter is a simple level. kick it downwards and the bike starts. add an electric starter and you need a bigger battery, starter gears, a solenoid, extra wires of the heavy sort and the skinny sort, and a button on the handlebar....all so someone can push a button with their fingers instead of pushing a lever with their foot.

humans just love to find the most complicated way to do stuff. isn't that why we gave up carburators and points,( both easy to work on, dependable, and inexpensive to repair), and went to computer controlled fuel injection and electronic ignition( both of which are more complex to work on, less reliable [ think about how many times you end up replacing various sensors ], require special tools and equipment, and far more expensive to repair) ?
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Last edited by captain jack; 02-03-2014 at 11:28 AM.
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  #88  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
that's a rather useful piece of information. i should think some sort of tiller lock or tiller pilot would be a needful thing to have.


as far as wheels go, i have an idea that i haven't seen anywhere, yet.

everyone uses a quadrant, or tries to find a way to take the bugs out of a very short tiller in place of a quadrant, with lines leading to blocks on the side and then back in to the pedestal and up to the wheel. but why?

why not use a pull/pull system? instead of a set up that, basically, puts the pull point in front of the rudder post, like a tiller does, why not mount a T, perpendicular to the direction of a normal tiller, to the top of the rudder post? a line could go directly from each side of the T to the blocks, at the base of the pedestal, then up to the wheel.

each line would have positive pull until the end of the T faced directly to the block pulling it. of course, you never need to turn the rudder that far. so, you have stops at certain points near the base of the rudder, to stop it from turning too far. the blocks at the base of the pedestal could be fairly close together. it would always have positive pull. it would be a 'closed' system, like the throttles on modern motorcycles. the pulling cable actine like the throttle cable while the other acted as the return cable.

any thoughts about that? reasons it might not work as i think it would? seems simple enough to me. but, maybe i am missing something. thoughts?

a similar set up would be to use a 'sideways' short tiller, essentially just one side of said T, with a solid, adjustable, connector rod linking it to another arm at the bottom of a vertical shaft running through the pedestal. it would be, basically, a wheel version of the scandinavial push pull rudders that you see on faerings. te only drawback i see to this, compared to the above cable idea, is that you do need bevel or mitre gears at the top to meet up with the horizontal wheel shaft. the cable set up doesn't need that. but the completely solid nature of this set up would be more durable.

although, personally, i think the ease of manufacture and low cost of parts for the above cable system would outweight the benefits of a non-cable system. the costliest part of the cable system would be a used wheel from ebay. other than that, you would need a motorcycle drive sprocket, a smallish length of motorcycle chain, two blocks, and some steel to weld up the T fitting. the pedestal could be fabricated from heavy gauge PVC pipe. you'd also need a short bit of round stock, for the wheel shaft, and two bearings for it to ride on. probably cost less that $200 for everything plus a bottle of rum to drink while you sat back and looked on the finished product with a smile on your face.
Sorry, I'm having a bit of difficulty envisioning precisely what you're describing there :-)

I suppose you could consider a version of Etap's Vertical Tiller? I always thought it was one of the dumber things I'd seen (the 'helm seat' behind the tiller in the pic below would appear to afford one of the more uncomfortable, tiring steering positions in all of Creation), but Charlie Doane certainly liked it ... Needless to say, they've never really caught on...

ETAP YACHTS: Surviving the 2012 Apocalypse (and Bankruptcy?)




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  #89  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: why so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, I'm having a bit of difficulty envisioning precisely what you're describing there :-)

I suppose you could consider a version of Etap's Vertical Tiller? I always thought it was one of the dumber things I'd seen (the 'helm seat' behind the tiller in the pic below would appear to afford one of the more uncomfortable, tiring steering positions in all of Creation), but Charlie Doane certainly liked it ... Needless to say, they've never really caught on...

ETAP YACHTS: Surviving the 2012 Apocalypse (and Bankruptcy?)




seems like an overly complicated way to make a whipstaff, to me. let me try to describe it simpler.

most cable/chain set ups put a quadrant on the rudder post. this acts to replace the tiller. you can't just cut the tiller really short because it doesn't work too well, that way. it's complicated.

anyhow a quadrant is like a really short tiller. it is a handle that runs from the rudder shaft forwards. it has to be pulled in a side to side motion.

in order to do this, most cable set ups run the cables out to the sides of the boat, through blocks, and then back in to the blocks at the base of the pedestal.

the cable runs, from those blocks, up to the wheel.


what i am saying is to mount a T across the rudderpost that runs from side to side, instead of back to front like a tiller. also, unlike a tiller, it wouldn't just be on one side of the rudder post. it would extend equally to both sides.

the cables attach to the ends of this T fitting. they run directly forward to blocks at the base of the pedestal. then they run up to the wheel.

you replace a complicated quadrant fitting with a simple bar fitting. you lose a set of blocks. don't need them. it would take less room to run cables.

the reason you need to usea quadrant instead of just a really short tiller is that the end of the tiller moves on an arc. if a cable pulls directly to the side of the tiller, it loses it's steady pull at a certain point. the quadrant fixes this. there are other ways to fix that, too.

however, my idea wouldn't suffer from this problem because it doesn't need to pull the lever so far as the other system. you only turn the rudder so far.

basically, my idea would work like a norweigian push pull tiller...only with cable. although, the bottom idea, part B if you like, would use a solid connector and be much like the norweigian push pull tiller. but part B would need a vertical shaft, in the pedestal and gears at the top. more solid but more complex.

is that better? i could try to draw a diagram in paintbrush, if i am still too unclear, but i won't promist the quality of such a drawing! i can't just draw it on paper and scan it in because i am snowed in at my girlfriend's house and she has no scanner.
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  #90  
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Re: why so long?




the image to the left is how it's usually done. the image to the right is what i was suggesting. if you were really stuck on the 'backward' steering style of the tiller, you could even run the lines to the opposite blocks, at the bottom of the pedestal, and the wheel would steer backwards, too.

hmmmm. i should have altered that picture a little more. with my idea, instead of happening below the cockpit sole, the T and all cables would be above the sole. i will work on that, so the pic is more accurate. give me a min.





ok. that's more like what it would look like.
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Last edited by captain jack; 02-03-2014 at 01:05 PM.
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