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why so long?

13K views 120 replies 18 participants last post by  captain jack 
#1 ·
this thread is about my 1971 cal27. the tiller is really long. around 51". it takes up most of the cockpit. if i sit in the boat and my girlfriend sits next to me, with me closest to the tiller, it will jiust miss her, if she sits plastered to the back of the cabin. but, if i am pulling the tiller towards myself, say as if i was going to tack, it traps my legs and is uncomfortable close to my body.

i have seen a T2 with a wheel. basically the same boat with a taller rig and a different cabin arrangement. i would have to move the travelor to behind the companionway, like on an outbord equipped c27. however, i have never sailed with a wheel before and i don't know if i'd like it. plus it's a bug expense and a lot of work. something i'd rather contemplate after a season sailed as is.

but, i can see that long tiller being a real PIA. so, the question is, can i run a shorter tiller and how short could i go? i need to replace the one i have. it's really toasty. so, i could go for a shorter one....but can i, without making the baot hard to steer?

opinions?
 
#2 ·
2 things. I saw 26 ft sailboat with an axe handle for a tiller that I didn't notice till it was pointed out (it was used for years). Wheel. There are other configurations for a wheel like a wheel connected to the tiller connection (horizontal ). And other wheels with gears connected to the tiller connection. If I find pics i'll sent them to you.
--Just some ideas. I like a wood wheel for lightening purposes. With a wheel you can get a big "Captain hat",sip whisky and Bark orders at anybody who will listen !
 
#7 ·
2 things. I saw 26 ft sailboat with an axe handle for a tiller that I didn't notice till it was pointed out (it was used for years).
that is good evidence that it can be shortened.

Wheel. There are other configurations for a wheel like a wheel connected to the tiller connection (horizontal ). And other wheels with gears connected to the tiller connection. If I find pics i'll sent them to you.
--Just some ideas. I like a wood wheel for lightening purposes. With a wheel you can get a big "Captain hat",sip whisky and Bark orders at anybody who will listen !
i have been searching the web to try to find a wheel set up, like that, which i could manufacture, myself, with the least actual modification of the boat. if you find said pics, that would be great. thanks
 
#3 · (Edited)
#8 · (Edited)
Could you make a curved tiller, with an extension, to give yourself enough room? Like this:

Karl's Cape Cod Boat Shop -- Custom sailboat tillers increase your steering control!
that's kind of what i was thinking about. a shorter tiller that curved sharply, so that it would raise the tiller height. i was just concerned about losing the leverage of a longer tiller.

duckworks carries one, too. it's of a little bit different design, i believe.

If you do switch to wheel steering, make sure you keep access to the rudderhead easy, so when the wheel gear fails you can easily install an emergency tiller.
that's one concern i have about going the wheel route. not only am i concerned that i won't like it but i prefer simplicity. less to go wrong. you can't get much simpler than a tiller. but, i suppose, if i did eventually choose a wheel, having an emergency tiller would help with that; as would proper maintenance.
 
#4 ·
the long tiller is probably cause the po liked it that way...

a lot of racers and dinghy sailors and small keelboaters use tiller extenders(which is better than just a long tiller) as it pivots but the long tiller is because a lot of helmsmen like to sit up forward by the coaming or cabin...it also allows solo sailors for example to be close to the main halyard winch, or sheets etc if lines are led aft for a quick adjustment or douse...etc...

I prefer tiller extenders usually with a foam grip...the best we made on the j24 we raced for example was a very light aluminum tube with a rubber strap cord running through it and into the tiller end...it will pivot in all angles and be flexible

in any case these are my ideas on why you have a long tiller...having said that with you having a helper on board there is no need for such a long one as space will be cut down as you already know

cheers
 
#9 · (Edited)
i believe the boats originally came with that tiller. i, also, would prefer a shorter tiller with an extension. but, i do see the point for a longer tiller for solo sailing. however, the traveler is in the stern, so the mainsail's control lines are all easily reached from the stern. also, there are winches, for the jib, close to the stern. i think it could be easily single handed with a shorter tiller. it is true that the longer tiller would allow a solo sailer to sit closer to the cabin, moving his weight forward for up wind sailing. but, in a boat that weighs 5400#, i am not sure how much the weight of one person would affect the handling.
 
#6 ·
The longer tiller gets the helmsman's weight out of the stern more amidships, and provides maximum mechanical advantage. The only downside of a shorter tiller would/could be the effort to control it when the boat loads up the helm. Not sure if the C27 has a properly balanced rudder - if it does then a shorter stick won't be any trouble at all.

Really don't think going to a wheel is the answer here.. the boat's a bit small for that and your limited budget would be far better used for just about anything else. Also, on a boat of that size it puts the weight of the helmsman AND the steering system well aft where it does most harm.
 
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#11 ·
The longer tiller gets the helmsman's weight out of the stern more amidships, and provides maximum mechanical advantage. The only downside of a shorter tiller would/could be the effort to control it when the boat loads up the helm. Not sure if the C27 has a properly balanced rudder - if it does then a shorter stick won't be any trouble at all.
you just pointed out all of my concerns.:) i will have to see if i can find a good pic that would allow me to see just where the pivot point is, on the rudder. it turns easily enough, when not moving but, that proves nothing at all. but leverage is my real concern.

the cockpit is small. so, i am less concerned with my body weight than i am with being able to sit in it, comfortable. you might be able to cram 4 people in it, comfortably, if two weren't worried about sitting on the windward side.

Really don't think going to a wheel is the answer here.. the boat's a bit small for that and your limited budget would be far better used for just about anything else. Also, on a boat of that size it puts the weight of the helmsman AND the steering system well aft where it does most harm.
well, that's why a wheel would be something for consideration after a season of sailing. added weight in the stern is always an issue with a wheel. plus, it's worse for single handed sailing.

and, at this point, i don't need to spend any more money or add any more work, to what i already will need to invest.

in addition, i have always sailed with a tiller. i like them. i'm used to them. plus they look all old timey salty. :laugher

seriously, though, a wheel would only be the course of last resort. however, having seen a T2 with a wheel, i feel better that, if i do have to go that route, it obviously works for these boats.

depending on the mechanical advantage of the wheel, the helmsman wouldn't have to stand behind it. he ( meaning me ) could sit to the side and in front and steer with one hand. but i do think the tiller would be best.
 
#12 ·
Have access to trees? Look for an oak, ash, elm or hickory branch with a likely shape & cut it now while the sap is not running, let it be seasoning 'til you're ready to shape & fit it. :) If nothing else, you could use it for an emergency tiller.
 
#13 ·
that's a good idea. i could see if i can find one that is already in the general shape i need. perhaps it's a good time to take a hike.
 
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#16 ·
that would actually make a nice looking tiller. $10 beats a hundred. it would take some spacers to fit the tiller bracket but that's a solid idea.

i had considered a shaft hooked straight down on the fitting. but it would sit pretty far to stern. of course, the wheel could be mounted on the front of the post, instead of the rear. i'd still have to figure out gears to go from the wheel to the shaft. i am sure that something else, totally unrelated, might have such gears which could be canabilized; perhaps the rear end from some sort of go cart.
 
#14 · (Edited)
1) There is a Monty Python skit where there are five guys in a lifeboat

"How long is it?"
"Kind of personal don't you think?"

that is what I though of when I saw the thread title

2) Mentioned already that a long tiller gets you to the center of the boat (closer to the mast)..

I wonder if there isn't a leverage benefit of a longer tiller. Didn't Archimedes say: "Give me a long tiller and a place to sit and I will steer your world"

Edit:Neither here nor there... I wonder why when you do a google image search for boats...some you find mostly sailing pictures and others you find mostly in a boat slip (what I found with your boat).. Not sure what that says about a given boat, but I guess if I was searching a boat I wanted to buy and half the pictures were of capsized boats... I would change my mind
 
#17 ·
1) There is a Monty Python skit where there are five guys in a lifeboat

"How long is it?"
"Kind of personal don't you think?"

that is what I though of when I saw the thread title

2) Mentioned already that a long tiller gets you to the center of the boat (closer to the mast)..

I wonder if there isn't a leverage benefit of a longer tiller. Didn't Archimedes say: "Give me a long tiller and a place to sit and I will steer your world"

Edit:Neither here nor there... I wonder why when you do a google image search for boats...some you find mostly sailing pictures and others you find mostly in a boat slip (what I found with your boat).. Not sure what that says about a given boat, but I guess if I was searching a boat I wanted to buy and half the pictures were of capsized boats... I would change my mind
a longer tiller does have a leverage advantage. during archimedes time, when rudders were not balanced as many are now, that was very important. if my rudder is balanced, it wouldn't be that important.

i would hazzard a guess that the reason you mostly see pics of these, older, cal 27s in the slip is that most of those pics come from sales ads. most ads don't contain nice pics of the boats sailing.
 
#18 ·
no. it wouldn't. no harder than adding a tiller extension to a shorter tiller. but, if the boat needs a long tiller for leverage, that would end up being a useless modification. you'd always have to have it extended.
 
#21 ·
for what it's worth, judging by the images i can find of the underside, including the one i have of mine ( when it was in too shallow water at high tide. long story. it's in another thread ), it appears that 3/4 of my rudder area is aft the stern post. not totally balanced but not terrible. i suppose it would be a trial and error thing, to figure out how much shortening the tiller would affect handling.
 
#25 ·
Jack that sounds like a typical balanced rudder.. Balanced rudders don't split the blade area 50/50 across the rudder post.. the forward balancing tab is typically 20% of the chord or less, so that sounds good. Rudders that become hard to control at times typically have the stock right at the leading edge like barn door rudders on full keels.

Too much balancing tab and you'd have no 'feel', and also with an inboard propwash can act on the balancing tab with enough force to make it hard to hold the tiller straight under power. Too much area and it can be a problem (similar to trying to hold a tiller straight when you're backing up with speed).

btw.. with the tiller 'longish' and sailing alone, I'd really give some thought to moving the traveller to the front of the cockpit as shown in your other thread.
 
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#28 ·
In "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding", George shows how to convert tiller to wheel steering without breaking the bank, and even keeping the tiller. (He also has lots of other DIY stuff you might find interesting/useful. )

Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding cover


From his website :

Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding description:

Starting with tools: "... the true craftsman is a rare bird; no more in tune with the Cosmos than you, just more patient..." to instructions for the proper use of alcohol at the launch, this book guides you step by step through the process of building a real sea-going cruising boat. Written from the novel point of view of keeping costs down and having fun, this is, if you'll pardon me, the BEST "how-to" book since "Volkswagen Repair For The Complete Idiot." There's 160 pages of drawings and photos, and even complete plans ranging from a 28' cutter to a 55' displacement power boat.

Print & mail or fax, or e-mail the following info: Please note; These things are NOT refundable without prior agreement!

Name: ____________________________________________________________________________

Address: ___________________________________________________________________________

__________________________________________________________________________________

"BUEHLER'S BACKYARD BOATBUILDING" $25.95______(FREE with all Building Plans. Add $6.00 Priority US postage, $11.00 Canada Air Priority, $13.00 western Europe air, and $22.00 elsewhere. If "elsewhere" is less than $22 we'll refund the difference. For example, Italy is $11 for Global Priority, but Slovenia next door doesn't accept US Global so postage there is $22)

George Buehler Yacht Design
P.O. Box 966,
Freeland, WA 98249

Telephone & fax (360) 331-5866
email: design@georgebuehler.com

#include ${std-disclaimer}
 
#31 · (Edited)
just started looking through his site. it's a delightful, well written site and he has a really good philosophy about life. well worth checking out.

he has some nice looking designs. i notice that the boats i have seen so far don't have a tiny toe rail, like most modern sailboats. they have low....we'd call them knee rails in the construction business. kind of old timey. i like that and wonder why it's not still done on modern sailboats.
 
#32 ·
His bulwarks and handrails are functional, not cosmetic like you see on today's boats -- they'll keep you aboard if you get hit by green water while working on the deck. He's in the Pacific Northwest and inspired by his familiarity and respect for the working boats of that region. The way he writes makes me think he'd be a fun guy to share a pitcher with -- there are some good stories in his book, usually with a point to explain why he designs as he does.
 
#35 ·
pretty sure the tiller is the stock length but, i also imagine that is the reason it was designed with such a long tiller. 36-40" would be much better.

by the way, no dodger possible with the pop top on this cal, i think. at least, i don't see a practical way that would work.
 
#39 ·
mine,s fifty in
long. i can stand, holding the end up ay the cabin bulkhead or grag only a foot or so and sit astern. onc trim is balanced, on a longish reach or rin, ya hardly hafta touch it to stay on course.

i,m looking into wheel options, too....prolly cable and drum! IF i move it at all

damm'd word fill and micro screen KB! :)
 
#40 ·
he actually gives some free steering suggestions, on his site, that i think are very good and very useful. it's got me thinking. if i end up adding wheel steering, i have an idea how to do it, fairly inexpensively, now, without a lot of additional weight. great link! thanks.
 
#43 ·
i have contacted them about their various set ups. with a worm gear or rack and pinion set up, i could fabricate my own housings. i think setting it up so i could steer from the side would help a lot. i have seen some bigger cruises, with wheel steering, set up that way. if i decide to do wheel steering, at some point, that may be the way to go.
 
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#44 ·
new, rack and pinion set ups, from edson, start around $1500 and worm screw set ups start around $4200. a bit pricey. they recommend i try consignment shops, based on the original cost of my boat. while parts can get pricey, if you get a used one that needs parts, worm screw set ups are bullet proof. i like the sound of that. perhaps as a future thought. of course....i do have extremely good metal fabricaton skills. i wonder how hard it would be to make one from scratch using basic machine shop equipment?
 
#45 ·
Make the tiller the length you like, buy/make an adjustable tiller extension and you can steer from nearly anywhere in the cockpit. This boat is not really one where wheel steering is going to make life any easier, IMO.

http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Forespar_TillerExtensions.pdf

Much better things to spend your money and efforts on than wheel steering at this point.
 
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#46 ·
oh, i quite agree. thinking about wheel steering is only for future possibilities.

i am going to follow the advice of one of the other posters. i will make or buy a new tiller after i have sailed it. during the first few sails i will try steering from different positions, on the tiller, to determine the best length. then, once i decide that, i will make ( or buy ) a new tiller. i do like the ax haft suggestion.

i am not sure i would even like wheel steering. i have always sailed with tillers. but there is no harm pondering the future while i am on the subject of steering. perhaps, sometime, i will get the chance to sail with someone that does have a wheel and get to experience it. then, i would know if i like it or not. i have read all kinds of different opinions of wheel steering, on boats this size. however, i will never know what i think of it til i try it. i would prefer to try it before i invest time and money in it.

even if i never decide to go for a wheel set up, someone else reading this thread in the future might be able to use information posted here.
 
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#47 ·
When I was looking at Islander 36's, I ended up choosing one with a steering pedestal over a tiller. Looking back, I wish I would have considered the tiller steered boat a bit more. Much more room in the cockpit with the tiller, easier to single hand, cleaner lines.

The pedestal has it's benefits as well I guess but on your Cal 27, I would think it would just take up too much space.

Also, as mentioned, $5k could be spent on a whole lot of other upgrades that would be more beneficial, imo.
 
#48 · (Edited)
When I was looking at Islander 36's, I ended up choosing one with a steering pedestal over a tiller. Looking back, I wish I would have considered the tiller steered boat a bit more. Much more room in the cockpit with the tiller, easier to single hand, cleaner lines.

The pedestal has it's benefits as well I guess but on your Cal 27, I would think it would just take up too much space.

Also, as mentioned, $5k could be spent on a whole lot of other upgrades that would be more beneficial, imo.
well, actually, space is the issue i have with the tiller.

the cockpit on this cal is pretty tight. if you really crammed people in, you might get 3 to a side. but it would not be comfortable and you wouldn't be able to use crew/passenger weight to an advantage.

i think the long tiller, unmodified, is going to be a PIA with just me and one crew. i have friends and family that might want to go for a sail, too. i think 4, including me, is a reasonable number to aspire for. but the tiller spanning the entire narrow cockpit would make that rather an issue. i would think a wheel, mounted aft, would open up a lot of space rather than taking it up.

i would think a wheel won't take up the entire cockpit. the tiller, at present, does. i am curious; how does the wheel take up more space? i have heard people say that and, i must admit, i don't understand it.

by the way, i'm not asking because i intend to go out and buy one of their systems, right now. i am asking for future reference. of course, if i found a cheap used system.....
 
#51 ·
Back to shortening the tiller. I would take some electrical tape and mark where you want to shorten it down to. Sail for a few weeks with only holding the tiller from behind that mark. If the pressure ever gets too heavy, then you know it is too short. You could keep moving it back till you find where it gets too heavy, then you know where the shortest it can be. Then figure out what works best for single handing, and go with that so long as it is before your shortest mark. That lets you figure the best length for sailing. If it makes your guests have to move, so be it. Sailing is the priority, at least in my world.
 
#52 ·
That is my intention. if i can go short enough, and still sail comfortable and easily, maybe the ax haft suggestion might just work out well.
 
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#55 ·
i don't think i'd buy a complete system, knowing what i know now about the way wheel systems are designed. i'd buy a wheel and build the rest. this has been a really educational experience.
 
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