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  #51  
Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

"Killing the Buddha" means slaying (metaphorically) the external role models, and internalized superego/commands, that tell you what you "should" be or do, so that you are free to actualize your own true self. Some say it derives from Buddhism's teaching that each of us strive to achieve our highest potential, or to become our own Buddha, and thus the need to kill other (false) Buddhas on our way to enlightenment.

Or maybe, in keeping with today's head thread, it's all just a load of poo....
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  #52  
Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
because I'm not a moron.
I'm more than capable of seeing anything a surveyor could see,probably more.
without time constraints.
I guess if your not skilled, capable, mechanically inclined and/or just a simpleton you need a surveyor.
the thing I have trouble with is if you're unable to determine if the boat is junk or jewel,who will you defer to when you're underway and things start coming apart? or is that what the epirb is for in your world?
not directed at any individual just a general question /observations.
You're missing the value of a survey.
The value is not in the fact that a surveyor knows more than you or is a better mechanic than you or understands systems better than you... indeed you may actually be the all-balls gawdam McGyver/ Don Casey/Nigel Calder rolled into one you think you are...
but you haven't got the title. You haven't got the letterhead that says "Surveyor" on it....
and from a saving-money-when-buying a boat standpoint, that is all that matters.
A would-be buyer poking around a boat, saying "yeah, i think the decks are soft, so I'll give you $2000 less than you're asking" carries no authority. That same buyer turning to a seller with a surveyor's report with the moisture meter readings noted? That's got some value- it means something.


I wouldn't get a 32' bayliner buccaneer surveyed either- it is a pretty simple, straighforward boat wiht low cost systems, and a replacement can be had for under $5K. But when we start talking about larger more expensive ($10K )boats wiht more expensive systems, as the OP is, then a survey by a reputable surveyor will probably be free...


But hey, if you want to argue against free, have at it.
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  #53  
Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
well Rambo, that sounds alot like a threat of illegal retribution. or threat of violence.
which one you wanna go with?
and just exactly what are you capable of beside empty threats on an internet chat site to people you've never met or even seen?
what possibly could you be saying? that you're threatening me? If that wasn't so hilarious it might be criminal. As I said, the only way I'm buying insurance is if it required by law to register and operate my vessel. don't like it too bad.you cannot do anything about it.
of course everyone that buys insurance has a vested interest in forcing everyone else to pay for it as it widens the paying pool and keeps premiums lower if there are more participants.
Sorry, I'm not subsidizing your fear and/or policy.
And, you can't make me.
see you on the bay.
Well, let me see. You post a lengthy, rambling note which basically says that you are free to cause any damage to anyone you wish and, even if it is your fault, you do not give a damn. What do you expect after such a statement ?

Do you really believe that everyone else is just supposed to stay out of your way because you are somehow special ? Sorry, but you are not. Your responsibilities are just like everyone else's: you make a mess, you clean it up. Simple. That is what I have been taught in the old days. No exceptions.

Did I threaten you with violence ? No. Would I pursue my legal options in such an event - you better believe it. And that would not be empty talk. Trust me on that.

Can I force you to act responsibly ? Unfortunately, I cannot. However, if you did act recklessly, I am fairly certain that I could prevent you from causing such damage to others. Don't worry, it would be done legally.

See you on the Bay.
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  #54  
Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

If you are still looking for a boat Don Casey's Book Sailboat Maintenance Manual includes stuff on carrying out your own survey.

I looked at a lot of boats before buying my current one and Casey's book helped me identify serious issues on a number well before I got to thinking about an offer.

Casey's book also tells you how to fix stuff.

Keep looking and damn the cannons and naysayers.
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  #55  
Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

joe, I insure my boat because it gives me freedom. it gives me the freedom to anchor or dock where i want when i want, and it costs me about $3/wk not to have my options limited in this increasingly litigious world.
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Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertluster View Post
I'm still shopping and waiting for the chance to move aboard and head south on a budget that is basically NO budget
We have owned many boats and only ever got a survey on one (our Legend 37), and only because we had to finance $12,000 of the purchase of it and the lender required the survey. Otherwise I do my own surveys on over a dozen boats we have owned over the years.

If you get a smaller boat to start with with an outboard and pretty simple and basic systems, anybody that knows the difference between a vise grips and a screwdriver, and is reasonably experienced with boats should be able to do their own survey.

We have always had liability insurance in the event we are sailing along and somebody with a $1.5M boat cuts us off just because they figure they're "better" than we are. So we consequently ram the side of their boat and put a hole in it and sink it. Being they have a $1.5M boat they probably have high dollar lawyers too. And those high dollar lawyers will make it our fault, even though it's not.

We have always self-insured on comp on our boats until we got the Legend, which we had to buy comp for because of the damn lender. The lender will be paid off in May and then we will drop the comp on it. If somebody rams the side of our boat and sinks it, we'll just take the money we saved on comp premiums, buy one of those high dollar lawyers and sue 'em
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  #57  
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

None of us ever "plan" for stuff to happen, so for $3 a week, why not CYA if you ever NEED to slip into an insurance-requiring marina? What can it hurt? It's like the deer whistle conundrum- sure you can't prove deer whistles work, but what can it hurt to put them on? yeah,I know you don't need to install deer whistles because you've never hit a deer...but doesn't that just mean the odds are greater that you will hit one in the future?
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
what else you got?
you might convert me.
Our liability insurance only costs us $100/year for $500,000 combined single limit or whatever they call it. All the marinas here require it to have a slip. I don't remember what the minimum is but I think it's $100,000. I'd have to check my contract for our slip.

But I've never seen where they require it to go the fuel or transient docks.

It's not you you have to insure for. It's the dude who bought the $200,000 powerboat and doesn't know anything about how to skipper one. But he's got enough money to make everybody else liable for his mistakes. He spends most of his life in a high-rise office building and on weekends he turns into Captain Courageous with his toy. You can be sliding into the fuel dock and Captain Courageous will cut you off just because he can to get there first. And when you bump into him because he cut you off he gets all bent over the $10,000 scratch in his boat that is actually his fault. We've seen it. When you get into an incident like that and you got liability insurance you're not on your own. That $100 or $150 a year buys a lot of lawyer power because all these insurance companies got lawyers working for them to try to get out of paying a claim and get the other guy's insurance to do it. It levels the playing field.
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Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
yea,as I thought, your all bark.
as for your interpretation of reality, good luck.
As,I have not caused ANY damage to you or anyone else's boat. until I do you are mearly blowing smoke.
but for the sake of argument let's say I sink your boat, you Atty I'm sure will be happy to take your money. but he cannot extract from me that which I do not have. and you would be SOL. no tangable assets no money, etc. there are legal limits that basically shield the "poor " if you think you could take my boat,so what I paid $2000 for it 10 years ago.
face it, it would be a loosing battle for you,so you can get as twisted as you want, I'm still laughing in your face.
So, continue to attempt to portray me in any way you wish, but reality is you'll sadly come out the lesser.
If I was of substantial means and had anything of value, I would as a matter of good judgment, insure it against such a possibility, but the fact is I don't so I won't.
harsh but true.
You still don't get it, do you ? It is mentality like this that will lead to the mandatory boat insurance. I am not saying that you have caused any damage or that you are likely to do so in the future. However, if you do - you better be prepared to make the other sailor whole, whether you have insurance or not. Why ? Because it is YOUR responsibility (assuming you are at fault, of course).

The problem with your argument and approach to this issue is that it does away with responsibility, both financial and moral. And that will inevitably lead to the government imposing mandatory insurance, because we as a society chose to ignore or forget what is right and wrong and rather do what we as individuals want.

If one chooses to get on the water where there are other people's boats, one must understand and be prepared for the risk that there can be potential damage to other boats. There are several ways to deal with this risk. If you are very rich, you can "self insure" and be prepared to compensate the other side from your own pocket. If you are not wealthy, then liability insurance is your best friend. To take the approach of being "judgement proof" is pathetic, not to mention irresponsible and immoral.

In the situation you mention, if someone was to damage or sink my boat and it was their fault, I would certainly pursue a judgement on the person and go after all their assets, including the boat. It may not be worth much, if anything, but still as an asset it can be seized in most jurisdictions. And that to me would mean that at least I prevented similar misfortune to others. Yes, I will not gain anything financially but at that point it is not about the money. Rather, it is about what is right and what is not. I may not get compensated for my losses but I will make sure that the reckless behavior and devil-may-care attitude ends there. And that at point, it does not really matter how much it will cost me, as it really is no longer about the money but rather principle. Old school stuff.

So, you may call it "blowing smoke" or "bark" or anything else that makes you feel comfortable but to me it is a matter of principle and I will stick with it no matter what. I have been raised on those values and I am not about to change.
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  #60  
Old 01-31-2014
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Re: 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?

Joe another thing you might want to think about it the possibility of hurting a person not just property damage to a boat.
You served our country, and for that I'm thankful. You probably are very good at what you do with a lot of experience, I get that.
But what if something goes wrong on your watch? It might not even be directly your fault.
The rudder linkage may break causing a loss of steering. Your throttle may get stuck in gear and not go into neutral. You can get an overwrap on your jib sheet and not be able to release the jib. Any of these things happening at the wrong moment may cause you to loose control of your boat and hit someone else.

What if the guy you hit has a little 6 year old boy in the boat and your hitting the boat causes the kid to go flying and he gets hurt? What if he gets hurt bad and needs surgery and hospitalization and rehab.

If that happened even if you are personally judgement proof I suspect you would be the happiest guy in the world if you could look the father in the eye and tell him you got the 500k policy not the 100k policy as you tell him to not worry about the kid because you have good insurance.

I love to hate insurance companies just as much as the next guy but my personal experience with boatus has been all positive. They were pleasant on the phone, prompt with the damage assessment and prompt with the check in the two instances I was involved with.

Even if I was judgement proof if I caused someone physical injury I would find it pretty hard to live with myself if I couldn't at least do something for them. At least that is how I would define taking responsibility for my own actions.
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Last edited by davidpm; 01-31-2014 at 11:46 PM.
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