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Sailing "big boats"

18K views 122 replies 32 participants last post by  Total Chaos 
#1 ·
How many of you out there sail boats over 50' ? Do you wish you were smaller? bigger still? We sail an Irwin 65 that has been set up for world cruising and we absolutely love the space. We don't like the additional costs for EVERYTHING, though. I am getting ready to paint the deck, house and masts and the variation in quotes is dramatic. Some yards treat us like we are a mega yacht and want to charge INSANE rates, at others the price isn't bad at all. (all relative I guess). At this point though I don't know that I could convince the family to move onto anything smaller, and I'd really hate to give up my workbench, but I can't say that I haven't imagined a few less small people on the boat and a 45'ter for the the two of us. :) We do love our boat though.
 
#2 ·
I sail a 42 footer, and if I had the chance to do it without breaking me, I would go back to a smaller boat, 35-37 feet, or so.
 
#3 ·
Hey,

I go through this every year. In the spring, when I'm working on the boat and sanding the bottom and washing the decks and buying things like bottom paint, I always think "Why wasn't I happy with a 28' boat?' Then, in the middle of a 3 day cruise, or when there are 10 people aboard I think "You know, a 42' would be pretty nice. I'm sure I could handle one."

Barry
 
#4 ·
Not in the 'over 50' range (not in boat length anyway :p), but we had a 40 footer for 12 years and now down to 35.. We 'downsized' 9 years ago now, and the 35 is less expensive, easier to handle, still feels 'small and manageable' but we spend a couple of months aboard every summer in plenty of comfort.

While every once in a while we get an itch up upgrade/renew, it's never to go bigger, just maybe newer.. and then we can't see the benefit/cost ratio that makes sense and settle back to reality...
 
#6 ·
I used to watch the reviews and walk the boat shows just sort of looking at the big ones with curiosity, not really thinking about them personally.

Now I've reached a point where I could afford a much bigger boat and I've looked at big boats more seriously. Doing so, I've realized how much it would diminish my pleasure. Owning and running a 50' boat has two options. Either you do all the work yourself, in which case it's a tremendous amount of time and effort; OR you hire out much of the work. When you hire it out you don't really get to know the boat. It's not personal. It's not "your" boat anymore. Same thing with having a captain working for you to run the boat.

I used to think I could never have a 50+ boat because the operational costs are 10x to 15x what I currently see. Now that I can almost afford to piss away an obscene amount of money I begin to realize that it's not about the money. It just would not be as much fun. It turns into a management task, coordinating crew, reviewing plans with marina staff, scheduling dock space. You cannot just show up anywhere with a 55' boat and expect to find dock space. I don't want to do planning, I just want to go sailing.

GTJ
 
#8 ·
....
I used to think I could never have a 50+ boat because the operational costs are 10x to 15x what I currently see. Now that I can almost afford to piss away an obscene amount of money I begin to realize that it's not about the money. It just would not be as much fun. It turns into a management task, coordinating crew, reviewing plans with marina staff, scheduling dock space. You cannot just show up anywhere with a 55' boat and expect to find dock space. I don't want to do planning, I just want to go sailing.

GTJ
There are many 55 ft boats that can be easily sailed by a couple even solo. I don't know were you sail but in Europe it is the opposite regarding to find a marina place: you will have more difficulty in finding the space for a 36ft than for a 55ft simply because they are not interested in having spaces for small boats that occupy proportionally more space and are not so profitable. So they have lots of space for big boats and a much smaller number of places for smaller boats. The spaces for small boats are also on the ugliest place in the marina, away from everything.

Of course those big places costs a lot of money but since you can piss a lot of it:D, than it would no be a problem.

Here on the last years the size of the average cruising boat that you actually see cruising increased a lot. 12 years ago I had a 36ft and that was a small cruising boat. Today I have a 41ft and that continues to be a small cruising boat:D Most cruising boats are between 42 and 55ft now, at least the newer ones. If you look at the several mass market brads you will see that their flagship is always increasing in size. That increase is proportional to the demand of bigger sailboats.

Regards

Paulo
 
#7 ·
I used to sail duo an heavy 60ft steel boat and that was a big task for two (I was a lot younger and foolish). I doubt I would have done it now.

The difficulty of sailing a boat between 50 and 60ft has much to do with the weight of the boat. If it is a modern light one then it will need a lot less sail area and everything will be easier. Also it has to do with rigging. A lot was learned on the last 20 years regarding rigging for big boats solo sailed and a modern rigging adapted to it will make things much more easy.

Regarding interior space more modern boats have much more interior space and you can have the space you have in your boat probably in a boat 10ft smaller.

The big problem of managing a big boat has to do with docking maneuvers. Today not only the boats are lighter (and that makes it easy) as they have computerized docking systems that work with a joystick and that give to the boat the same agility of a smaller boat.

The problem with all that is that modern boats are expensive (because they are not old)...but maintaining an old one is expensive too.
 
#11 ·
We sail 44 ft.

For us the biggest issue is really haul-outs - and it's not about cost which is only marginally more expensive.

When in the South Pacific or any other wide cruising area (perhaps the Caribbean is the same) if you have a problem that requires the boat to come out, there will be nowhere in the islands that a 50 ft boat can be hauled out. Even at 44 ft we're marginal and many places are not equipped for this.

As for sailing 44ft, I have over the years upgraded from 26 to 33 to 36 and now to 44 and I can't say I have any issues managing the bigger size. Whilst I have no intention of going any further up in size (this boat is my last), the prospect doesn't frighten me.

Certainly I would not sacrifice the comfort of our boat for the alleged ease of handling something smaller.
 
#12 ·
Issue for us was could we sail the boat if everything breaks i.e. power winches, autopilot, pressure water, chartplotters etc. As a couple on the way over the hill 46' was just right. Two private staterooms/heads so no long term visitors unless we want. Can sail the thing regardless of failures, dedicated mechanical/work room. But still enough LWL for excellent hull speed. Think for a couple mid 40s is perfect. Still can sleep 7 without hot bunking but small enough to easily handle. Getting in adout of slips is still a horror show but we're learning.
 
#13 ·
Based on my unbiased experience (since I don't own a boat) I found the optimal combination of comfort, space, complexity and cost for a couple or a small group being 46'-52'. Assuming that O&M costs are affordable (and I agree that the money-pit becomes exponentially wider and deeper with the LOA) it will be difficult to downsize once one gets used to the comfort. And if one feels lonely on a big boat there is never lack of people willing to join.
 
#15 · (Edited)
SailingJackson - while everyone is welcome to an opinion, when it comes to singlehanding bigger boats, with offshore passages and equipment failures and complex systems, there are those who say it cannot be done and then there are others who just go out and do it.

My point is that there enough people doing successful big-boat shorthanded sailing to show that it can be done. While it might be imprudent, or perhaps dangerous, or inadvisable to do this, it can be done.
 
#18 ·
My point is that there enough people doing successful big-boat shorthanded sailing to show that it can be done. While it might be imprudent, or perhaps dangerous, or inadvisable to do this, it can be done.
Well, I'd amend that slightly - to sometimes... by some people... :)

Stanley Paris originally planned to go without any electric winches on KIWI SPIRIT... Then, after she was launched, they figured out he was unable to raise the mainsail without one, so it was added...

One of the major contributors to the failure of his voyage, was the destruction of one of his headstay furlers after wrapping one of his spinnaker halyards at the upper swivel... The evidence would appear to indicate that he probably left his finger on that winch button just a bit too long... :)

 
#19 ·
First I must say that I really enjoy working on my boat its kind of my zen... I love to sail, but to be fair I enjoy fiddling with my boat almost as much. We do 90% of all our maintenance, even with the more complex systems, none of it is rocket science, though some of the electrical can feel like it at times. The only thing I won't do is the exterior paint work, not because I am incapable, I choose not to. As to the safety of sailing the larger boat- the Ketch rig helps somewhat, the all in boom furling is additional help, and we have significant redundancy in the sail handling systems. There are five electric winches and back up, upon back up. I suppose it all could fail, but I'm thinking that is unlikely. The setup to single hand this boat is not entirely complex, but is not by any stretch of the imagination an inexpensive endeavor to set up. The boat can be sailed from the cockpit only with no need to go forward. The boom furlers allow the sails to be dropped easily in an emergency if there is a jam. I have yet to have a problem with the furlers. Yes we have a thruster, which makes docking relatively easy, but we can and have done it without the thruster.

Now to the issue of space, I get that a lot of you are sailing couples, we are as well, but my guess is not all of you sail with five additional small sailors aboard. We have five kids on board full time, and two of them teenage boys. I think on a forty foot boat we might have to drag the kids behind in the dingy some days. LOL... Anyway that makes seven people on board full time. Five of us scuba dive, we have an air compressor on board and all our gear. Space is not an insignificant factor for us, and the alternatives have positives and some big negatives for our not so small crew.
 
#20 · (Edited)
TC - most impressive . Yes you truly need the space. People forget sometimes we all need some quite time ideally behind a closed door or up on the fore peak by yourself. With teens I expect that's even more apparent.
Other issue is at about mid forties wind vane self steering becomes less effective. Boat is moving faster and displacement greater. Then there is even more dependency on having electricity. At mid forties when the lights go off you can still sail the boat.raise,reef and strike.
People forget cruising isn't day sailing. Usually the main goes up and stays up a good part of the time. Even motoring if there is any wind you power sail when you can. Been debating about hydrovane v. second A.P. Design of stern makes any servo pendulum less appealing. And ease of having emergency rudder sounds nice with simplicity of hydro vane. ? Do you have backup if rudder fails.
 
#21 ·
We have complete redundancy in the steering system, two complete systems in fact, but the rudder- well no... I've thought about it some though, we have a vertical transom so I imagine some sort of track and a drop in rudder, at some point somewhere I've seen something like this. We would have a problem with the swim platform though. Something to think about more though rudder failure is a scary thing to think about. There is always the sea anchor, the rig balances well so there are options if I had the time and depending on the sea state. I have no idea whether I could get her to sail up wind at all with no rudder. Our rudder has been reinforced and updated, but that doesn't mean a heavy grounding couldn't set up such a situation. Love to hear thoughts on this topic.
 
#22 ·
I made my first, and only, open water crossing on a Catalina 30 from San Pedro, Belize to Houston, Texas. I thought that I had hit the big time gaining passage on such a large and provisioned boat, and there were four of us! Honestly, even if I had Bill Gates' money, I can't see owning anything bigger than 40', unless I was a charter for hire.
 
#23 ·
Prior sisterships have used dropped blade and tiller to allow inclusion in blue water races or hydro vanes with emergency rudder add on. Big selling point of hydro vanes is they can be mounted off center. When coastal take rudder and vane off. Having the hydro vane deployed makes backing down and slow speed maneuvers more difficult from what I understand. Some sisterships have gone with monitors with emergency rudder add on. Don't see how that would work for me due to configuration of existing hard dodger/ davits etc.
May be forced to go the 2 autopilot and auxiliary emergency rudder route.
 
#24 ·
Our boat is really our summer home and we sail her nearly every weekend for 6 months per year. Having enough room and amenities to be comfortable is important to us. We also have guests nearly every weekend and they're not always family or close enough friends that we would be comfortable camping on top of each other.

Our boat absolutely sails like a dream. Easily handled by 2 and, while I've never taken her off he dock alone, I have effectively sailed her solo with my wife down below many times. Essentially everything is in the cockpit.

Certainly, the larger boats get your attention with every maintenance bill. I fully agree with the comment above that we are always met with a huge smile from maintenance yards. They are absolutely accustom to seeing dollar signs, when they see a bigger boat. Our bills are going to be bigger than a smaller boat, but they can really reach for it, just to see if you'll pay. Let's face it, there are some uber-rich owners that just want it perfect at any moment and do pay for that kind of attention. I manage my own maintenance, doing what I can and contracting out what I can't or don't have time for.

The one thing my wife often complains about is the size of the fenders and dealing with them. We use 12" x 36" fenders. Six of them. You would too, if you've ever had a bad storm destroy a 30k paint job. From time to time, I think about buying inflatable mega-fend fenders just to stop the complaining, but that would be $3,000 in fenders!!

We sometimes dream of moving up, but certainly don't need to. Who knows, maybe in retirement, if things go really, really well between now and then. But the idea of less expensive, easier, etc, can't escape one's thinking either. If it were just the two of us, no guests, we could certainly be comfortable in something smaller.

Then we rented a 36 foot Bavaria for just the two of us in the BVI last winter. Fenders the size of my wrist! :) While there was plenty of room for two people, it drove us nuts. Boat speed, galley storage, having to climb around the helm wheel or having to remove it at each anchorage, and on and on. I absolutely could not wait to get back to the helm of our boat!! It was great therapy.

The reason we know we have the right boat for us, is we are always comparing every other boat we are on to it. We've toured similar sized Oysters, Hylas, etc and, while acknowledging their quality, still prefer many of the features of ours over them.
 
#25 ·
I think it is very dependent on the boat. I'm very happy with our 53'er and I really don't think we 'd be happier with a smaller boat, nor do we really need a bigger one.
The two main points we find great about the 50'er is space and comfort. This is our home; everything we own is aboard and we have plenty of room to store it all away. We have a guest cabin with head, and a smaller cabin used for storage, which enables us to take advantage of picking up large quantities of items like milk, tp, paper towels, canned goods, etc. when they are cheapest and going for months without having to pay the outrageous prices that some islands charge. For instance, my mate loves milk, but it can be upwards of US$2.00 a quart for UHT milk in a lot of places; in Martinique it's less than a buck a liter. We can buy ten cases at a time, saving hugely.
Every time we cross a channel, we are reminded that the size and weight of our boat provides us with a drier, faster and much more comfortable trip than the smaller boats we see around us. Of course, a hundred footer would do that even better, but we probably wouldn't be sailing a hundred footer with just two of us, and our time alone together is very important to us. With all roller furling, she is the easiest boat I've ever sailed; we sail off and onto our anchor almost every trip. At anchor, we are definitely more comfortable than a smaller boat; it is nice to be able to drop the board and have a 10' draft in a rolly anchorage.
When I was single handing her, she was quite obedient powering into any dock. Again, with the roller furling; sailing was a breeze.
Of course, there is maintenance to do, but does the refer unit on a 42'er require less maintenance than one on a 53'er? Sure, haul outs cost more, as does the paint required, etc. but it's a small trade off for the comfort and space a 50' boat can provide.
 
#26 ·
I sail a 36' boat and with a reverse transom it's really more like a 34' boat. While I have thought of getting something a little larger and heavier for long distance cruising, I'm not ready to cut the docklines yet and not convinced we need a bigger boat. Yet.
So, 40' might be really great to have but I also know I DON'T want 50' and bigger. I don't want to have to rely on complex systems, electric winches for everything, and above all I don't want to feel like I'm tending to a computerized ship. Big boats just don't seem to have that intimate interface that mid sized boats (and especially dinghys) have. Having sailed on BIG boats, most recently TransAtl. on a 65' Oyster, it didn't feel like sailing. Comfy and lots of toys to play w/ but I felt somewhat removed from the experience of SAILING.

I really like the fact that I can take my boat out by myself in most conditions that one would want to go sailing and not have to scrounge up crew if the Admiral is working. And we went cruising for 9 days this fall and never felt cramped. Maybe if we had to go for a month w/o replenishing I'd feel different but for now it's fine.
 
#27 ·
While there are not too many sailboats here in Atlantic City (Some mega power yachts though) I Have noticed that the "sweet spot" for use seems to be between 28 and 40 feet.

Smaller than that, and people only go out on bright sunny days.. larger than that and it is a major undertaking to go out.. so the 28 to 40 footers seem to go out the most.

My personal opinion is that 30 to 35 feet is the perfect compromise between usable space and cheaper running, hauling, and mooring costs.
 
#28 ·
Sailing the boat is not the problem. Once out there one person should not have issue with anything <50'. Rather it's the hard edges. Nice to have someone catch a line or snag a mooring or see the side you can't at the wheel or watch for coral heads or dead heads. Once it's too big to handle without power, or too big that you need two to stand watch for me it's too big. Short of that bigger is better,more comfy,safer,faster,and more leading to greater independence. Can wait to get water,fuel, food. Can expect a greater"days work" so more choices. Difference in quality of life in our psc34 and the current boat is huge. Both are great boats but simple things like having the room to carry more pots/pans and having to forgo the extreme space discipline a small boat requires makes the bride smile.when she smiles life is good.
 
#29 ·
I helped crew a 90 footer once, for a week. Once I saw what 90 foot prices were, for everything, I quit dreaming of having one. :D
 
#31 ·
I like big boats.
We moved to the larger boat for passage making because it's much more self sufficient for remote areas and more importantly we can accommodate crew. A group of People aboard make the passages much more interesting (providing you are sociable). In heavy weather it's far less tiring if you get a decent sleep between watches. A bigger boat is also more comfortable in a seaway.
Also when coastal cruising at your destination you always have some who happy to stay onboard when everyone else wants to go ashore. People especially women also appreciate decent showers and private heads in places comfortably usable at sea. So you keep good crew if you want them.

My 65 footer ( Approx 40 ton ) has a simple ketch rig with no furlers, storm sails are the working sails reefed and everything self tacking except the main. Everything is dropped and hoisted and stores on booms or in bags along the rails.

I had a 57 footer for a while but it was cutter rigged and too hard to handle despite electric furlers and winches. The ketch I have now is very easy to sail in all weathers and has no furlers and simple winches. I've had shredded sails and a large boat knocked down trying to furl them in a sudden front hitting us unexpectedly.
I find it's easier, quicker and safer to run and release the halyard and drag the sail down and lash it to the rail.

Sometimes We don't even touch the sails for days and the autopilot steers, everyone cooks, eats talks, learns each others languages and plays games music and even paints pictures. Then the passages are actually really fun and memorable. And when you make port the crew can stay aboard.

We have 6 good sea berths another 6 in fairer weather or cruising rather than passage making ( a queen sized double and 4 bunks up fwd) all in 4 separate sleeping cabins. In fair weather during the day people are usually on the aft deck and the deck space is another plus for big boats !

I also have a 45 footer performance cruiser I sail single handed. It's fun but it has a pokey head a shower in the cockpit and I get seasick on it in heavy weather. I don't get a twinge of mal-de-mare on the bigger boat even in real survival weather.
 
#32 · (Edited)
..

My 65 footer ( Approx 40 ton ) has a simple ketch rig with no furlers, storm sails are the working sails reefed and everything self tacking except the main. Everything is dropped and hoisted and stores on booms or in bags along the rails.
....
You mean not even furlers for the forward sails (Genoa), Code 0, Geenaker?
Do you sail that one alone? I believe this discussion had to do with a big boat that could be sailed alone or with a little help from the wife.

I also have a 45 footer performance cruiser I sail single handed.
Can you tell of what boat you are talking about? I am sure it is not your case but some talk about what were 20 or 30 years ago performance cruisers as if they could still be considered performance cruisers when in fact their performances and weight are now similar to the one of a contemporary cruiser. What people call a performance cruiser is not always the same. Just to understand better of what you are talking about;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#35 ·
Paulo
Yes similar boat but mines 12.5 tons laden. I'd put that in the performance cruiser bracket. It sails at 8 knots pretty easily with the lee rail well out of the water. A bit light for long distance cruising and I get seasick on it !

But lets talk about big boats :) My 65 footer I have had 4 years now and had no problem adjusting to the size. I love it.

Whats the largest you have skippered, how did you get on ?
 
#41 · (Edited)
Paulo
Yes similar boat but mines 12.5 tons laden. I'd put that in the performance cruiser bracket. It sails at 8 knots pretty easily with the lee rail well out of the water. A bit light for long distance cruising and I get seasick on it !

But lets talk about big boats :) My 65 footer I have had 4 years now and had no problem adjusting to the size. I love it.

Whats the largest you have skippered, how did you get on ?
I have already said so. Duo crew on a 60ft steel heavy height also without furlers. It was a handful but mostly because we only sailed that one with lots of wind (over F7). With less we prefer to sail on my 24 ft traditional sailboat. The skipper was Flemish and he got quite a reputation among fisherman. We sailed from a fishing harbor and on the conditions we sailed the boat, on the big waves of the Portuguese west coast, we were far faster than the big fishing boats, even with big engines. That Flemish family was living on our home port (aboard) and we become friends.

The problem was that boat was only fun and fast to sail on those conditions. The boat sailed very poorly with medium to weak winds.

Solo sailing the biggest I sailed was a 43ft boat. Less trouble to sail than my 41ft but less fun. I guess that you would be calling that 43ft a performance cruiser. Well my boat is easy if I reef it. I still go fast but that's not as fun as catching the other boats and be entertained taking care of sailing;). Not difficult with some experience.

I don't get seasick and the only time I have been close was on the steel big one while cooking with an incredible bad smell of rotten fish. The sea was not that bad but I was not the only one that start to be seasick while trying to cook on those conditions.

Regards

Paulo
 
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