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  #11  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

There are actually quite a few high end boats being redesigned for modern materials and built these days.
A couple of times a month we see what we believe to be beautiful old classics, but they end up being new constructions. Many are alloy, a few carbon fiber, but from a distance you would swear that they were built in the 20's or 30's.
Isn't it nice that a few of the very, very rich have some class.
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by obelisk View Post
That gets right to the point of my question: how the bones differ from a FRP to an aluminum hull and how much the interior would have to be rearranged.
In my experience it is much more difficult to get aluminum anywhere near as fluid as many boats in FRP. Especially with keels, transoms, bows and the transition areas to and from these. Then there is the whole weakening of metal when you flex or bend it, that happens in construction as well as use. Now add in the many "flavors" of AL, and the need for people to counterfeit the specs and finished panels. Now add support structure, more welds - way too many of which alter not only the structure, but the hull where it is attached/welded and you end up with an inherently weaker boat than the design. Add in some oxidation or electrolysis.

It will be very interesting to see how Ford's new truck impacts or annoys AL construction. The Jags they made seemed to be OK, and Perhaps adhesives or a new way to weld/attach panels to structure will be found.

I know that Ford's attempts in 2005-06 to attach AL hoods and trunk decks to underlying structure was a real failure. My mustang started showing signs of oxidation at the joint and way under the paint showed up in less than two years, most of the time garage kept.

Thanks and all the best.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

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Originally Posted by obelisk View Post
As she was designed by the same folks as my boat, Kaufman and Ladd of Annapolis, I was quite keen to learn a bit more about her. That's when I stumbled on an article from Offshore Navigator from January 2003 entitled "Reviving an Old Design" about a guy who settled on the design as his choice for a new-build, offshore boat. He had the plans digitized and a hull shaped from the only remaining set of paper plans.

This got me to wondering about the feasibility (i.e. cost, availability of qualified and/or willing yards, etc.) of reviving an older design. Maybe someone out there can provide some answers to these questions:

-How straightforward is it to convert an older design, fiberglass hull plans into a one-off aluminum new-build?

-Does anyone have experience with such a project and could recommend resources?

-Would one of the big yards (Kanter, etc.) be interested or would it be a smaller outfit?

Any other thoughts or comments on the process.
Both Mike Kaufman and Rob Ladd are still around Annapolis (Mike is actually in Severna Park) and still practicing yacht design. They are no longer partners but they are both an email way if you wanted to talk to them. Kaufman Design - Naval Architects Marine Engineers Surveyors and Robb Ladd Yacht Design - Annapolis, MD 21403 - (410)268-9194 | ShowMeLocal.com


They were probably in their 30's when they designed those boats back in the early 1980's, so they have a bunch more experience under their belts by now. Both Rob's and Mike's designs have evolved to keep up with the lessons that they have learned over their years of experience. Like most designers i supect that they would have thoughts about how they could update their older designs, and so they certainly could advise you on the do's and don'ts of how you might 'update' their design.

Pleasant dreams,
Jeff
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  #14  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Both Mike Kaufman and Rob Ladd are still around Annapolis (Mike is actually in Severna Park) and still practicing yacht design. They are no longer partners but they are both an email way if you wanted to talk to them. Kaufman Design - Naval Architects Marine Engineers Surveyors and Robb Ladd Yacht Design - Annapolis, MD 21403 - (410)268-9194 | ShowMeLocal.com


They were probably in their 30's when they designed those boats back in the early 1980's, so they have a bunch more experience under their belts by now. Both Rob's and Mike's designs have evolved to keep up with the lessons that they have learned over their years of experience. Like most designers i supect that they would have thoughts about how they could update their older designs, and so they certainly could advise you on the do's and don'ts of how you might 'update' their design.

Pleasant dreams,
Jeff
When I did a keel-up refit in 2008 on the Severn River (VA not MD) before leaving the Bay, I spoke with Mike several times. The first time I was shocked when he answered the phone, remembered the boat, asked if she was still flag blue and was genuinely interested in chatting before getting down to business. When I came to a question he couldn't answer about the skeg, he asked me to hold, in the background I heard papers rustling and he returned to the phone with the original plans in hand! Class act all the way.

I was just wondering if it would be better to bring in a set of "fresh eyes" or impartial minds on a redesign or best to stay with the original.
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

The way I understand your question, I'd go to the original designer. Much of the "look" of a boat comes from extremely subtle variations in line weight, tapers, a few inches difference in the low point of a sheer and so forth. Most of that comes from the specific designers eye and is what gives different designers their unique look.

Kaufmann & Ladd boats like the Skye look a lot like the Swans of the time but they have an entirely unique take on that basic style.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

Another Bob Perry story.. his Norseman 447 was 'reworked' into an aluminum design for a skilled homebuilder.. We saw this boat shortly after construction and it wasn't until you were within a few feet that you could see any indication that she wasn't a factory glass 447. So it can be done (ie taking a molded glass design and rebuilding in Alu.)

If Bob notices this thread perhaps he can tell us how big a deal it was to rework the design for the different material. One thing I'm pretty sure of is he didn't consult a certain BC metal boat builder
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

I've thought of similar ideas of building a boat based on old plans, if I were to find plans I like. Maybe not to the same size as the example but something that could be built myself. I'd have to learn how to read the plans in order to build anything more complex anyway and trying to find what info I can about it.

It sounds like a good plan. Hope it works out for you.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

Daniel,

Use the term "plan" loosely!! more like a pipe dream but just something I got to thinking about. When I was in the Azores, I was rafted next to a boat from Newport named "Gracie", a beautiful 69' Concordia and, as the story goes, she was the second iteration of the hull. The first was several feet shorter and the owner decided to fashion a new hull with input from his crew on what needed to be improved in order to win the Bermuda Race. After all the suggestions were compiled, the result was a hull with very similar lines but much improved layout: Gracie (formerly "Arcadia", i think). It made me think about those little tweaks I would make to mine if the money, time and motivation were to present themselves.
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  #19  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

Keep in mind that these plans are the IP of the designer. Kind of like copying a song, with minor tweaks, it is a violation of the original designer's ideas and rights. You would have to at a minimum pay a royalty if they would let you do it at all. The only way I could see doing it is if the original designer was deceased or incapacitated, but would get approval from the designer's family or representatives. Just keep in mind that the improvements are normally far from an improvement, just look at the abomination that was the redesign/improvement of the T-bird.



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  #20  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Reviving an Old Design

miatapaul,
the original plans lie with the designer and, of course, they would be needed and the designer's approval (whether purchasing a set of plans or some other agreement) would have to be given.
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