Rigging Failures - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-18-2014
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
D9MCW is on a distinguished road
Rigging Failures

I have recently returned from a mile builder trip in and around the Canary Isles and Morocco where I was a member crew. During the trip we had two fairly significant rigging failures which I believe were caused by the sail settings and sail configuration.

At the times of failures, the sail configuration and sail settings were at the express direction of the Skipper (to the extent that he personally re trimmed the sheets) despite a number of disagreements with various members of the crew including myself.

Having searched on line for similar failures I have been surprised that there does not appear to be reports of similar occurrences and so I thought that I would seek the advice of others more knowledgeable than myself
We were sailing a 2000 (year) Jeanneaeu Sun Odyssey 40 with Harken winches. The rigging had just had itís annual inspection by a professional rigger and was deemed to be in good order.

Incident No 1 - Shortly after changing tack and while beating upwind into a 3m sea Ė wind speed between 25 and 30 knots, the wire strop that connects the jib or foresail to the halyard snapped. The jib was reefed with probably about 50% showing, the mainsail had two reefs in it as we were sailing at night. The strop which was made up from 8mm stainless steel wire was in good condition and had been refitted the day before when it was moved from the foot of the jib to the head of the jib.

The strop failed because the wire was pulled through the crimp. The crimp was well formed. The wire showed obvious signs of distress where it pulled out. This suggested the strop failed simply due to the load put on it.

The jib sheet car was pretty far back on the traveler (towards the stern) and the jib sheets were tightened to a point they were slipping on the winch (low ratio with 3 turns on the drum).

I suspect that the force being exerted through the sheets was such that with the car being well back on the traveler the force was transferred to the top of the sail and was such that it caused the strop to break, but I cannot find anything on line which can support this theory or not.

Incident No 2 - While beating upwind, close hauled with only the Genoa up into a 3m / 4m sea Ė wind speed between 30 and 35 knots the top spreader on the windward side of the mast collapsed or rather deflected downwards and backwards through approx. 45 degrees. This caused the windward rigging to de tension and the yacht to be very nearly dismasted.

Why we were beating upwind, close hauled with just a full genoa up and no mainsail is another story and one that probably proves that just because you have a qualification to skipper a yacht does not mean you are competent to do so.

Anyway again I cannot find anything on line that discusses a rig failure in these circumstances.

My own thoughts are that the jib which again was tightened to a point where the sheets were slipping on the winch (low ratio Ė 3 turns), was exerting such an unbalanced load on the top of the mast that the mast was liable to a twisting motion which was exacerbated each time the yacht buried itís bow into a wave. The twisting of the mast (top) caused the force being exerted on the spreader to be moved to such a degree that the spreader wanted to re align itself and once having done so allowed the rigging to slacken. This in turn increased the bending of the mast and moved the force on the spreader even further off line.

The two failures above were fairly dramatic and although unusual are probably not unique. I was surprised not to find any information on line. Any thoughts on the above would be greatly appreciated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 03-18-2014
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,555
Thanks: 4
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

Sounds like you have gorillas on the winch handles. The strop failure could also have been due to halyard tension. Perhaps it was pulled up nice and tight by one of your gorillas, and then someone else decided the backstay was too loose and pumped up a few thousand more pounds on that. The shock loads on the sails from bouncing around in the waves can also be impressive. Beating with just a full genoa in those conditions doesn't make sense. The sail is pulling the boat's head off, pulling you to leeward, making it difficult to steer and - as you suggest - subjecting the rig to heavy shock loads on just about every wave. How much sheets slip on a winch depends upon too many variables: sheet diameter, how much pull by the tailers, how much torque on the handles, the condition of the scoring on the drum...to be much of an indicator. It happens all the time in situations less nasty than you describe. Don't know if I would sail with that guy again, even if he fixes the mast which is probably quite twisted at this point. That may be why you don't find much about situations like yours: people avoid skippers like that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 03-18-2014
Group9's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,648
Thanks: 20
Thanked 60 Times in 59 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Group9 is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

The only time I was ever on a sailboat where there was a rigging failure, was on a 26 foot boat, that I was helping deliver, that the previous owner had re-rigged himself.

It bothered us when we inspected it before we left, but we stupidly decided it would hold up for 200 miles. It didn't and we were dis-masted in 30-35 knot winds, 20 miles from making it to our destination.
__________________
On the northern Gulf of Mexico.


"Best thing to do is get her out on the ocean. If anything's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there." Captain Ron Rico
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 03-18-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 730
Thanks: 6
Thanked 54 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 9
knuterikt is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by D9MCW View Post
I have recently returned from a mile builder trip in and around the Canary Isles and Morocco where I was a member crew. During the trip we had two fairly significant rigging failures which I believe were caused by the sail settings and sail configuration.

At the times of failures, the sail configuration and sail settings were at the express direction of the Skipper (to the extent that he personally re trimmed the sheets) despite a number of disagreements with various members of the crew including myself.

Having searched on line for similar failures I have been surprised that there does not appear to be reports of similar occurrences and so I thought that I would seek the advice of others more knowledgeable than myself
We were sailing a 2000 (year) Jeanneaeu Sun Odyssey 40 with Harken winches. The rigging had just had itís annual inspection by a professional rigger and was deemed to be in good order.

Incident No 1 - Shortly after changing tack and while beating upwind into a 3m sea Ė wind speed between 25 and 30 knots, the wire strop that connects the jib or foresail to the halyard snapped. The jib was reefed with probably about 50% showing, the mainsail had two reefs in it as we were sailing at night. The strop which was made up from 8mm stainless steel wire was in good condition and had been refitted the day before when it was moved from the foot of the jib to the head of the jib.

The strop failed because the wire was pulled through the crimp. The crimp was well formed. The wire showed obvious signs of distress where it pulled out. This suggested the strop failed simply due to the load put on it.

The jib sheet car was pretty far back on the traveler (towards the stern) and the jib sheets were tightened to a point they were slipping on the winch (low ratio with 3 turns on the drum).

I suspect that the force being exerted through the sheets was such that with the car being well back on the traveler the force was transferred to the top of the sail and was such that it caused the strop to break, but I cannot find anything on line which can support this theory or not.
With the car "well back" most of the sheet load will be along the foot of the sail.
It's unlikely that sheeting hard on a 50% furled sail should give such a load on the halyard.
Could you have had a halyard wrap?
Or a bad crimp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D9MCW View Post
Incident No 2 - While beating upwind, close hauled with only the Genoa up into a 3m / 4m sea Ė wind speed between 30 and 35 knots the top spreader on the windward side of the mast collapsed or rather deflected downwards and backwards through approx. 45 degrees. This caused the windward rigging to de tension and the yacht to be very nearly dismasted.

Why we were beating upwind, close hauled with just a full genoa up and no mainsail is another story and one that probably proves that just because you have a qualification to skipper a yacht does not mean you are competent to do so.

Anyway again I cannot find anything on line that discusses a rig failure in these circumstances.

My own thoughts are that the jib which again was tightened to a point where the sheets were slipping on the winch (low ratio Ė 3 turns), was exerting such an unbalanced load on the top of the mast that the mast was liable to a twisting motion which was exacerbated each time the yacht buried itís bow into a wave. The twisting of the mast (top) caused the force being exerted on the spreader to be moved to such a degree that the spreader wanted to re align itself and once having done so allowed the rigging to slacken. This in turn increased the bending of the mast and moved the force on the spreader even further off line.

The two failures above were fairly dramatic and although unusual are probably not unique. I was surprised not to find any information on line. Any thoughts on the above would be greatly appreciated.
The spreader end should have been secured to the shroud to prevent it moving down.

It sounds by your description that the boat was driven hard into the waves, this can start the mast pumping.
Pull on the mast from main sail & main sheet could have helped preventing this situation...
Or maybe the rig should have been fitted with additional stay's to stabilize the mast.
nolatom and christian.hess like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 03-18-2014
christian.hess's Avatar
"Nubile Southern Sailor"
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Columbus, Ga
Posts: 4,360
Thanks: 170
Thanked 173 Times in 169 Posts
Rep Power: 2
christian.hess is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

does that boat having running backstays?

Im not a fan of single sail heavy weather sailing...while not exreme 30-35 knots can be a tremendous load on the mast while beating...

beating usually birngs out all the flaws certain rigs have, pumping like mentioned is a killer of rigs if not taken care of

the crimp on the wire rope that isnt all that uncommon...could be exactly what was mentioned before...someone tightened the backstay after really hammering on the jib halyard...since you were beating the thought is to tighten the backstay and keep things taught but if done after the winds have piped up damage can happen...

Im also not a fan of tighten stuff while on tension, especially beating...if it comes down to it id much rather run off the wind...even drop sails if need be, and however uncomfortable it may be to do this with no sails up...haul up sails again after tweaking rig and keep on going

sometomes its hard to get a little lull in waves and pounding to trim the jib sheet for example without it going awol but luffing into the wind a bit to ease pressure works well sometimes

again dependant on wave pattern and how often you are pounding each wave if you will

imrpoper sheet angle is a killer of sails, or jib in this case not necessarily the halyard per say...you could of easily ripped the foot of the sail if you kept hauling in...having said that was the leech flapping all around and ballooned out? if so I understand why crew was unhappy

regarding the spreader was it tied in? boot? tape something to clamp spreader to rigging?

I like bootsand simple zipties or wire...

in any case in 35 knots of wind I would of much rather have a very small foresail preferrably on an inner forestay and a triple reefed or deep reefed main

a lot of people forget that rig balance is essential in order to prevent premature rig failures...cause if you load one extreme and have the other unladden you cause uneven stresses...

anywhoo

hope this makes sense
__________________
Islander 36 now FOR SALE!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by christian.hess; 03-18-2014 at 01:00 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 03-18-2014
ASA and PSIA Instructor
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,496
Thanks: 7
Thanked 19 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 15
sailingfool will become famous soon enough
Re: Rigging Failures

No offense to the OP intended, but his speculation as to the causes of the problems that occurred seem to reflect a limited understanding of sailing, and the blames assigned to the skipper need other justifications, if due.

For example,
Quote:
Originally Posted by D9MCW View Post
...The jib sheet car was pretty far back on the traveler (towards the stern) and the jib sheets were tightened to a point they were slipping on the winch (low ratio with 3 turns on the drum).

I suspect that the force being exerted through the sheets was such that with the car being well back on the traveler the force was transferred to the top of the sail and was such that it caused the strop to break, but I cannot find anything on line which can support this theory or not...
The results of an aft car location are the opposite what the OP speculates, the leech of the sail would be slack, and the foot tensioned, if something were to break due to this configuration, it'd be the tack...
__________________
Certified...in several regards...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to sailingfool For This Useful Post:
Boredop (03-18-2014)
  #7  
Old 03-18-2014
christian.hess's Avatar
"Nubile Southern Sailor"
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Columbus, Ga
Posts: 4,360
Thanks: 170
Thanked 173 Times in 169 Posts
Rep Power: 2
christian.hess is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

I agree...tried to emphasize that

pulling on the foot will most likely always tear the bottom of the sail or pull a clew or tack etc...

the only cause for the crimp to fail was too much tension on the halyard to begin with exacerbated by crankinbg on the back stay or simply a badly crimped wire
__________________
Islander 36 now FOR SALE!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 03-18-2014
Alex W's Avatar
no longer reading SailNet
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,309
Thanks: 2
Thanked 139 Times in 133 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Alex W is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

A properly crimped steel cable won't fail by having the cable pull out of the crimp, the steel cable will break first. By definition your strop was not properly made.

Your spreader failure incident is a little harder to understand. Was this a permanent failure, or the spreader bent and then went back into shape? It sounds like the spreader was overloaded and may have had a pre-existing issue. Do you have photos of the spreader from after the incident?
__________________
I'm no longer participating on SailNet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 03-18-2014
zz4gta's Avatar
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,466
Thanks: 0
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 8
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

I won't address the crimp failure more than saying that 8mm wire has a breaking strength somewhere in the 10,600 lbs range. A steady static load of 35 kts on a 2000 sf sail would be needed for that to fail. If it was new. But it's 14+ years old, so it broke. Such is life. That's fun with wire, hardly any warning before it fails.

The rig failure is another story. If the helm wasn't balanced than maybe, but that boat should've had a blade onboard and been using that. Also, you can close reach and unload the boat tremendously depending on wave action. Bottom line, don't beat up the boat unless you need to. If this was a delivery and not on a tight schedule, then it's pretty easy to sail slow at wider angles and preserve the boat.
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 03-18-2014
zz4gta's Avatar
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,466
Thanks: 0
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 8
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
Re: Rigging Failures

Another note, for offshore work it's probably better to have the strop at the bottom to allow waves to pass under the sail instead of shock loading it and the hardware.
christian.hess likes this.
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chartering and mechanical failures -- next steps andifreed Chartering 10 01-29-2013 08:23 PM
Hose clamp failures? downeast450 General Discussion (sailing related) 5 12-23-2009 10:05 PM
Bummer... Hate equipment failures labatt Gear & Maintenance 5 07-05-2007 10:46 PM
Avoiding and Surviving Rig Failures John Kretschmer Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 09-28-2003 09:00 PM
Hull failures in Vanguard 420 CharlRob Gear & Maintenance 1 03-20-2001 06:39 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:11 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.