Boat won't come up into wind - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-30-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

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The rigger in me says to check the mast rake. Do this by using a plumb bob (or heavy wrench) off of your main halyard and measure the distance from that point on the boom and mast. It should be 5 6 inches (Im guessing here, not knowing your specific boat).
George,

While I am basically in agreement with you on the rake issue, I would suggest that the actual rake actual dimension that the boat currently has does not matter at all.

It sounds like the boat has mild lee helm, and if that is the case, and there is nothing unusual with the sail trim or sails, or the rudder being warped, then the rake adjustment should be basic incremental increase in the rake (moving the masthead aft). I am concerned that starting from an arbitrary 5 to 6 inches measured with a plumbbob could mislead the OP into making a larger adjustment than is necessary, or to make an adjustment in the wrong direction.

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post #12 of 26 Old 06-30-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

As Jeff noted, you likely have lee helm which can be caused by a number of things. It IS a dangerous condition. It's also not typical, especially for a Hereshoff designed boat, so something must be considerably out of whack. In a gust, instead of rounding up (weather helm) which will quickly decrease the amount of wind in the mainsail to zero, the boat will do just the opposite and increase the wind bearing on the sail. If you're not quick enough popping the sheet and the boom hits the water, over you go. Would be good to see more specifics.

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post #13 of 26 Old 06-30-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

I have found that a suprising number of boats that have zero rake at all. Instead of doing a little rake adjustment for excessive weather helm, they take all of it out and turn their boats into pigs. For boats in the 25 30 foot range, rake will be 5-6 inches depending upon the rigs aspect. It takes only a couple of turns on a stay to bring the rake in or out a half inch (we call that fine tuning). The OP could to an internet search for the precise rake number or he can pay a rigger to do the calculations. He will still be doing fine adjustments as part of the dynamic tunning stage. IF the owner has zero rake, (Ive even seen forward rake ) no amount of sail trimming is going solve his tacking issue. And I would look at rake long before investing a couple of kilo bucks into new sails only to find that that doesnt fix the problem.

All in all, we are in pretty close agreement.

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post #14 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

The OP never said the sailboat falls off when the helm is released. Maybe the sail plan is perfectly balanced?

My little Privateer 26 schooner will balance to the point where I can let the tiller go and it will track straight for miles, as long as the wind stays steady.
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post #15 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

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The OP never said the sailboat falls off when the helm is released. Maybe the sail plan is perfectly balanced?

My little Privateer 26 schooner will balance to the point where I can let the tiller go and it will track straight for miles, as long as the wind stays steady.
I agree, he never said anything other than it did not turn to wind when he released the tiller. Maybe the rig is tuned perfectly and he is a great trimmer. Need more information.

IF he has lee helm, lots of good answers here.
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post #16 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

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Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
I have found that a suprising number of boats that have zero rake at all. Instead of doing a little rake adjustment for excessive weather helm, they take all of it out and turn their boats into pigs. For boats in the 25 30 foot range, rake will be 5-6 inches depending upon the rigs aspect.
Won't the intended rake depend on how the boat was designed? I have less than 2" of rake on my mast with a light amount of weatherhelm. I'd be worried that increasing rake to 5-6" would make for a large amount of weatherhelm.

Both jibs and main are less than a year old.

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post #17 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

yup giving rake advice in general terms is pointless...all boats and masts are designed with specific tune in mind...

looking at the sloop rig of the vixen its very traditional masthead, straight up, no prebend...no noticeable rake...in fact in some pics I can see a reverse bend to the mast which in general terms is not good but it means at the dock its straight up masthead.

http://www.boatshop24.com/us/-vineya...ailboat/264514

I too am waiting for the op to specify wether he indeed has a perfect balance when letting go of the tiller or of indeed he has leehelm

the reason is Ive had a few boats who could be perfectly tuned...

most noticeably my marieholm folkboat on which I often used a bungee too simply keep on track...thats mostly from the underbody design, but the rig was really good.

I could let go of the tiller for quite some time especially on a beat.

Merit 25 sold...Islander 36 still afloat? who knows...Im still in Columbus, and back...I think...jajajaja!!!!
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Last edited by christian.hess; 07-01-2014 at 11:16 AM.
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post #18 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

True. I assumed the boat fell off without a hand on the tiller. This redesigned Hereshoff (Hall) has an aft mounted rudder which probably gives it much better balance than the keel hung Hereshoff original. The problem with most of the keel hung boats like mine is generally weather helm on gusts, not lee helm.

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post #19 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

Let’s see if I can remember my rigging formulas correctly. Weather helm is when CE is aft of CB and lee helm is the opposite. Cruising type rigs have a rake in the range of 1 – 2 degrees whereas racing rigs more like 5 degrees plus. After that, it is all trigonometry. Five to six inches is a good starting point guess for the OP's 28" boat. So, to determine your rake in inches on the boom, you need to know your “P” dimension. For a boat that is about 28’ LOA (and not knowing "P"), two inches on the boom would indicate to me that the rake is about a 1/3 degree. As I stated before, once you got it statically tuned, the do the dynamic tuning which is sail the boat, tweak the rake, sail again. Repeat the process until you are happy with the results.

My basic assumption in suspecting that rake is the problem is: 1) OP is proficient in sail trim and 2) he said that he was using a non-overlapping headsail. Another possible reason for not being able complete a tack would be too large of an overlapping headsail. (You guys on the east coast actually tack with those 150 and 170 headsails? Wow.)

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post #20 of 26 Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Boat won't come up into wind

where does he say he is not able to tack?

he says when he lets go of the tiller the boat wont naturally round up..like his past boats....leaving us in a bit of a quandary since that could mean its perfectly balanced and keeps going straight...

Merit 25 sold...Islander 36 still afloat? who knows...Im still in Columbus, and back...I think...jajajaja!!!!
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