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  #31  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

Whatever you are comfortable single-handing

My pal singles his 44 Irwin center cockpit and has even had to sail into his slip when his trans busted.
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

When you talk about a reasonable sized boat to do a circumnavigation I would suggest that you size that boat by its displacement (weight) since weight more than length is the best indicator of 'how big' a boat really is and to a lesser extent how easy it is to handle.

As a broad generality, I would suggest that circumnavigators have used boats with as little as 2 long tons of displacement (+/_4,500 lbs), on up from there. For most normal folks there is a practical limit for the largest boat a single person can handle across a broad range of conditions before some special measures need to be taken. Those measures are typically some mix of compromised performance, mechanical devices such as powered winches, or coffee grinders, or other forms of powered sail handling gear, bow thrusters, and so on.

For most folks, a boat becomes pretty difficult to handle single-handedly in heavy going or in docking situtions once it gets above somewhere around 17-20,000 lbs. Within reason, the longer the boat is for that weight, the better it will sail, the less punishing it will be on its crew, and the easier it will be to handle. In your "help me pick my boat" thread, you talk about wanting a traditional rather than a modern design. As a broad generality, for any given displacement, older the design the harder it will be to handle.

The material that follows is intended to get to the heart of this discussion, I apologize to the rest of the SailNet members who have seen this before, and to the O.P. since it is a little long and I wrote it for a slightly different purpose, but it does get to the fundamentals implied in your question.

The dream of voyaging under sail can be a powerful one. There was a period when several times a month I would receive an email from someone who is considering doing just what you are proposing. I have watched literally dozens of folks go through this. Some are successful in getting 'out there', some discover that they really enjoy sailing and find that they really have no need to 'go out there’; some have discovered that the sailing life is just not for them, and others have not even gotten past the dreaming stage.

From what I have seen, the most successful (especially when children are involved) have been the ones who have been somewhat systematic about going. There is a lot to learn before one can safely venture offshore. No one would assume that they could buy a jet airliner take a few lessons and be able to fly around the world. I think most rational people would expect to start with a small plane and work their way up. But for some reason people assume that they can just go out and buy a big boat, take a couple lessons, read a few books, and then go safely cruising.

While there are people who literally taken a few lessons, read a few books and went out cruising, those that were successful following that route are far more rare than those who have done some kind of apprenticeship. Learning to sail and learning to cruise involves a lot of knowledge and no matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn, but I suggest that you at least take the time to learn the basics, and that just about can’t happen if you buy ‘a big sailboat’ and move your family aboard.

I find myself saying this a lot lately, but here I go again. We all come to sailing with our own specific needs, our own specific goals and our own specific capabilities. The neat thing about sailing is that we all don’t have to agree that there is only one right way to go sailing. There is no more truth in expecting that there is one universally right answer about many aspects of sailing than there is in trying to prove that vanilla ice cream is universally better than strawberry ice cream. One area of sailing for which there is no one universally right answer involves the amount of knowledge one requires to go sailing.

For some, all they need or want to know about sailing is just enough knowledge to safely leave the slip sail where they want and get back safely. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach. Lack of knowledge will impact the level of risk, cost, comfort, and performance, but if you want to get out there with minimal knowledge it can be done. But for others, like myself, there is much more to sailing than simply developing a rudimentary knowledge of sailing basics. If you fall into that camp, it is next to impossible to learn to sail really well on a boat as large as the one in question.

While I am in no way suggesting that this makes sense for everyone, for those who really want to learn to sail well, I strongly suggest that they start out owning a used 23 to 27 foot, responsive, light-weight, tiller steered, fin keel/spade rudder (ideally fractionally rigged) sloop (or if they are athletically inclined then a dinghy.) Boats like these provide the kind of feedback that is so necessary to teach a newcomer how to really sail well. Boats like these have small enough loads on lines and the helm that you and your children can all participate and learn together. Being able to learn and participate, the children will be more engaged and less likely to be bored and feel kidnapped.

By sailing well, I mean understanding the nuances of boat handling and sail trim in a way that cannot be learned on a larger boat. Used small boats generally hold their values quite well so that after a year or even few years or so of learning, you should be able to get most of your money out of the small boat and move on to a bigger boat actually knowing something about which specific desirable characteristics of a boat appeal to you as an experienced sailor rather than the preferences of some stranger on some Internet discussion group.

From the advice that you have already gotten you can tell that there will not be a consensus of opinion on how to go distance cruising. With all due respect to the EU gentlemen’s well-meaning advice, in my opinion it is exactly the wrong advice for what you are proposing to do. It is nearly impossible to learn to sail well on a catamaran that is large enough for a family of five, and without highly developed sailing skills, a cat that large is pretty dangerous offshore.

In any event, I think that you have the right idea about taking sailing lessons. If I were in your shoes, I would sit down and put together a list of all of the things that I would want to know before I set off voyaging such as:
• Boat handling
• Sail trim
• Rules of the road
• Weather
• Routing
• Boat husbandry, repair and maintenance
• Diesel/ gas engine maintenance and repair
• First aid
• Heavy weather tactics
• Legal restrictions on leaving and entering foreign countries
• Navigation, (Piloting, Celestial, dead reckoning and electronic)
• Provisioning
• Radio operators license exam requirements
• Safe and dangerous fish to eat
• Sail trim
• Survival skills
• Etc………..

Once I had what I thought was a complete list, I would set up a schedule to try to develop those areas of skill that I was currently lacking. As much as possible I would try to involve all those involved in as many of those aspects as each is capable of understanding. This process could take as little as a year, but more often takes two to three years. The process itself can be very rewarding and can build the kind of bonds that are required to be cast away on that oh so small island that a boat underway represents.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 07-17-2014 at 05:18 PM.
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I think it is rather rude to say one is too important to read the threads that have gone before but would instead ask questions that have been asked many times before and answered--with great effort by many.

If research is too hard for you I expect you won't make it very far.

Sorry if you don't like the message.
And you should work on reading comprehension before responding with an ignorant statement. I said nothing about being too important. I said I was reading a lot and trying to take in a ton of information and it was a bit overwelming, so I thought I would ask a direct question or two. I also stated that I would and have been looking through the sight for information already posted, that I wouldn't continue to post broad general questions, I've also stated that I love research, and thus far I have been very respectful and grateful for any advice given to me. Jokes are fine as I have thick skin, calling me rude when I have been anything but is not something I will tolerate.
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  #34  
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

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Originally Posted by travlineasy View Post
I guess it depends upon your definition of large.

Additionally, when the weather is cold and nasty I have a full enclosure that transforms the cockpit into a wonderful greenhouse environment. It can be 40 degrees outside the enclosure, while inside I can be sailing in shirtsleeves and shorts - it makes that much of a difference.

Cheers,

Gary
thanks for bringing that up because I thought of that myself. With a fully enclosed cockpit the size would seem to be irrelevant. Of course sailing requires you to leave said cockpit and go out onto the deck, but still, full enclosure would seem to diminish any problems the size would cause. I imagine anyway....
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  #35  
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

To Jeff H
Thanks for all that information. I hadn't thought of many of those things but I'll be sure to look into them. this is why im starting now. The dream is a good distance away but you cannot acquiring knowledge too soon. I have looked into the legality issues of entering and exiting countries and I've been watching a lot of videos on rough weather sailing (since that is pretty interesting), and I've also watched a few videos people have made of their longer voyages to see what sort of issues they encounter and what sort of equipment they feel is necessary for single hand sailing.
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

The problem is you don't know what you don't know. How long is a string?
Have you been sailing? On what? Where? Was it cruising or racing? Until you have time aboard boats it's tough to give advice because we have to have some idea of where your coming from.
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

I think for solo something around 40' works. Something big enough for good tankage and sea kindness. Bigger gets you more tank capacity and more speed along with the space, but a solo person doesn't really need more space than a 40' boat.

A couple on the other hand the best size is around 48'.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

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Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
thanks for bringing that up because I thought of that myself. With a fully enclosed cockpit the size would seem to be irrelevant. Of course sailing requires you to leave said cockpit and go out onto the deck, but still, full enclosure would seem to diminish any problems the size would cause. I imagine anyway....
Unless you're in a boat with a pilothouse, I don't think this is the way to go. Like you, we're researching our Next Boat (found it) to take us offshore and working on the skills list, much as Jeff H posted. As Bubble already mentioned, Gary sails in mostly protected waters. His enclosure will get ripped to shreds in some of the conditions encountered offshore and prevent movement forward wearing a tether.

On the other hand, his enclosure is easily removable (I've sailed with him) and so could be taken down when offshore, but that defeats the purpose you think it will serve out there.
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  #39  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

If you're inspired to go small read the book "Trekka" by john guzzwell. His boat was 21ft if I recall.
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

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Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
And you should work on reading comprehension before responding with an ignorant statement. ...
Evongelo,

Miscommunication, I'm sure. It happens to us all at times. SVA is one of the offshore sailors who has been there, done it, and readily offers help to others to do it, too.

I re-read the thread and no, you did not say that you were above reading previous threads, but please, temper your responses.
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