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  #41  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRFerron View Post
Evongelo,

Miscommunication, I'm sure. It happens to us all at times. SVA is one of the offshore sailors who has been there, done it, and readily offers help to others to do it, too.

I re-read the thread and no, you did not say that you were above reading previous threads, but please, temper your responses.
If that's the case I don't hold grudges. I've joined forums before where things start off great, then someone posts something like that and everyone else starts doing the same thing and before long you're being run off by people who claim they just want to help but spend every post insulting you.
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

I like auspicious! definitely one of the good ones here!

peace
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  #43  
Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

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OH no it is the Brent Brewery.....

You can brew beer with harbor water for less than 10 cents a pint!
Wake not the ghost of Rheingold.....
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  #44  
Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

An initial interest in circumnavigations is sometimes an indicator of someone who is very new to the whole sailing idea; while there are hundreds of sailors out there doing the circle around the marble thingy, they are a tiny fraction of the sailing community and a small part of what sailing is about.

What makes you particularly interested in a circumnavigation? Is it a personal challenge/big achevement, an interest in visiting different cultures, or something else about it that seems particularly appealing? There are some very different approaches to circumnavigating and different ways of doing it, so getting good advice will depend upon knowing more about your interests, approach, time line, resources, and more.

Do you have some experiences or skills that might transfer to ocean sailing? Have you lived in confined spaces, or done lots of high-adventure primitive outdoor stuff or global travel? Or maybe worked on engines in confined spaces? Done RV travel? Worked on the water? Like wild carnival rides? Flown an airplane or glider or parachuted? Love getting cold and wet?

Do you intend to solo? Or look for crew to share the ride? Or have a partner who is game for anything?

Do you like to jump in headfirst without checking the depth? Or do you plan things way far ahead and in super detail? How do you react when things don't go as planned? What does it take to make you really frightened? How do you expect the "life aquatic" to be different than on land?
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

That's a lot of questions.

I am a newb. Traveling the world by sea has always been a dream that I am now trying to gain knowledge about. I've always been fascinated by ships and sailboats and the ocean in general. I love history, and the ocean has a rich history. I love the idea of meeting new cultures. I'm not one for the quiet mundane of American life and seek adventure. Living without the comforts I am used to excites me to no end. I spend a lot of time outdoors "roughing" it in the desert where I live. I would probably do this with a friend or two but I would be the only experienced sailor when the time came. And I am definitely a planner, which is why I am learning as much as I can now long before I am ready to actually do it.
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  #46  
Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

Hi Evongelo,

I could well have tempered my response. Your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
I'm basically trying to gain knowledge right now. I've been doing a lot of reading on this topic, but it's so much to take in that it's nice to just ask direct questions instead of browsing for hours upon hours through the the internet or forums when you have one thing you want answered specifically.
hit me badly. I read your original post which is indeed a repeat of questions asked and answered many times. I'm not as organized as Jeff_H who seems to have a database of everything he has ever written to reuse. *grin* Me having a bad day is no excuse for over reacting. My apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
I also stated that I would and have been looking through the sight for information already posted, that I wouldn't continue to post broad general questions, I've also stated that I love research, and thus far I have been very respectful and grateful for any advice given to me.
If you like research you probably already have realized that the SailNet search engine leaves something to be desired. You may also know that you can use Google directly and include site:SailNet.com in the search terms to focus searching on SailNet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
Jokes are fine as I have thick skin, calling me rude when I have been anything but is not something I will tolerate.
Well actually I do not think "I was just kidding" is a suitable excuse for uncivil behavior. I wasn't kidding, I was over reacting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
FWIW, I disagree with the "buy a small boat" approach. It's fiscally wasteful and unnecessary.

Do the research, figure out what kind of boat meets your needs, shop among the boats that fills those needs, and buy your boat.

But wait, that doesn't mean that you should learn to sail on a 40 footer as your first boat. Go to sailing clubs. Borrow dinghies, crew on a variety of raceboats on Wednesday nights and distance regattas. You can build your sailing skills without owning an entire series of boats.

Once you build your skills, start sailing your own battleship. By then, you should have a fair clue about what you're doing.
Rich makes excellent points. Reflect on them. You might add some chartering in beautiful places like the Caribbean, Bahamas, and PNW.

If you have posted where you live I missed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
thanks for bringing that up because I thought of that myself. With a fully enclosed cockpit the size would seem to be irrelevant. Of course sailing requires you to leave said cockpit and go out onto the deck, but still, full enclosure would seem to diminish any problems the size would cause. I imagine anyway....
The subject of enclosures can generate as much ire as anchors.

In my opinion they reduce flexibility, make good sail trim difficult, restrict visibility, dilute situational awareness, and separate the operator(s) from their environment. Many things on boat and sailing result from a series of compromises and many cruisers accept, with various degrees of understanding, the implications of enclosures which include lines led aft (with friction and inability to see the load being managed), additional winches, the loss of important space on the cabin top, and ingress of water through the dodger.

The impact of those compromises makes more difference offshore than near-shore or inshore.

Please note that vocabulary is important and many people use words differently. Consider context if you can't ask directly what people mean by critical words. For example, to me "offshore" means a long enough trip to be beyond the range of reliable weather forecasting. Others may consider Cape May NJ to Newport RI or Ft Lauderdale FL to Bimini Bahamas or Los Angeles CA to Catalina Island to be "offshore." I don't. Conditions can be sporty, dangerous, and people can get hurt but it isn't offshore. Newport RI to Bermuda is on the threshold of offshore. Norfolk VA outside the Gulf Stream to Tortola BVI is offshore. Bermuda to Azores is offshore. San Fransisco to Hawai'i is offshore. Accordingly, when I talk about preparing for going offshore it means something different from someone who uses the word differently and is referring to provisioning at Publix in Lake Worth FL for the hop across to the Bahamas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
For a circumnavigation, what is the minimum size of sailboat one should have and what is the maximum size for one man?
Back to your original question.

In my opinion particularly small boats and particularly large boats both require more skill and experience than moderately sized boats albeit for different reasons.

One can unquestionably circle the globe on a Dana 24 (just as an example). To do so will require a great deal of thought on using storage space for food, water, spares, and other items. Weather will be even more important than for others.

Similarly a Sundeer 64 could certainly do it but the operators will need to fully understand maintenance and repair of many more systems of substantial complexity. Jerry rigging to manage failures will be complex and require more spares.

I've single-handed boats to somewhere around 70 feet. Bigger boats require more forethought and are more dependent on systems (winches, electrical systems, and hydraulics). I wouldn't mind going bigger but the opportunity hasn't presented itself. *grin* For my own boat I'm happy with a 10 LT 40 footer. I'd take her anywhere. I'd go smaller before going bigger.

While I agree with Jeff_H's suggestion that displacement is an overall better measure of "size" than boat length we do tend to use length as a metric so I'll stick with that. Keep in mind that 40 foot boats can be as light as 12,000# or approach 40,000#.

For a circumnavigation 35 to 40 feet seems to be a sweet spot for single-handers. In addition, in marinas you'll find that availability of slips goes down and unit costs (usually $/ft) go up somewhere around 40 to 45 feet. This is likely to be a bigger deal while you are preparing to leave than underway when anchoring is the norm.

The longest run I have done single-handed was seven days. I don't recommend it. There will be a couple of runs across the Pacific as long as four weeks. Crossing the Atlantic will include a couple of three weeks passages.

With respect to your research my recommendations are the following:

- the Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger website, and Beth's "The Voyager's Handbook"
- The SSCA Forum (you should join SSCA)
- Jimmy Cornell's "World Cruising Handbook" - at some point you'll want his "World Cruising Routes"
- Tania Aebi's "Maiden Voyage" (I don't think much of her later works, but this one is good)
- Richard Bode's "First You Have to Row a Little Boat"
- Joshua Slocum
- Lyn Pardey's "Care and Feeding of Sailing Crew" (I don't think much of their other works as it isn't relevant to the boats most of us sail today)

By the time you run out of those I'll have a list of the books that actually made it onto the bookshelf on Auspicious and stay there. Most of those are skills references. Where you are however it is more about the person than electrical or mechanical skills. As Rich said above, focus on you and experience. Figure out what the real questions are for you. Go sailing on as many boats as you can. Go racing. Charter. Pick up sails by walking the docks. For sure consider the source of information you receive. Not everyone with a boat really knows what they are talking about, or may have a very different context than you do.

I do regret my earlier over reaction. If you get to the Chesapeake I'll buy you a drink.
Jeff_H, chall03, DRFerron and 12 others like this.
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Last edited by SVAuspicious; 07-18-2014 at 10:10 AM.
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  #47  
Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
... I'm not one for the quiet mundane of American life and seek adventure.
I'm not criticizing, but when people express sentiments like this I get kind of sad about how much they may be missing in their own back yards. It's the same feeling I get when people say they get tired of the islands because "you see one island you've seen them all." That kind of tells me that they may not have gone past the beaches and tiki bars to meet the locals, explore the towns, learn about the history, eat the food prepared by locals and not ex-pat chefs recreating an English breakfast. I sometimes read the island papers and someone actually wrote in complaining that he couldn't get a "proper English tea" in the BVIs. Seriously.

We've had some of our best trips to cities in the U.S. that others felt were a waste of time. Cleveland is an example. Look beyond the heavily funded museums and such and there are some gems. To me it's an adventure to look for bits of history that slip through the cracks. Detroit is next.

My mom worked at a nearby retirement home for a while. Oh the stories I heard! Decades and decades of history in 20 acres in the middle of nowhere. History I would never have known if I hadn't decided to ask if I could sit and chat. Some things don't make it into the books.

My adventures are sometimes found off the main highway and on the side streets; by saying hello to the man who I always see sitting in front of my work building rather than not making eye contact and ignoring him day after day; instead of eating at my desk every day, taking a walk down streets I'd never been on before and later researching why some buildings have a historic plaque. Sometimes finding an adventure can be a challenge, but that's fun, too.

I guess my long, rambling point is that I wish more people would see that the grass they stand on is oftentimes just as green and take advantage of it while they have the opportunity. Sometimes looking for that next cool thing can be like always looking for the gold at the end of the rainbow without seeing the beauty of the rainbow in front of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evongelo View Post
Living without the comforts I am used to excites me to no end. ...
Then get rid of them now?
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Hi Evongelo,

I could well have tempered my response. Your post:



hit me badly. I read your original post which is indeed a repeat of questions asked and answered many times. I'm not as organized as Jeff_H who seems to have a database of everything he has ever written to reuse. *grin* Me having a bad day is no excuse for over reacting. My apologies.



If you like research you probably already have realized that the SailNet search engine leaves something to be desired. You may also know that you can use Google directly and include site:SailNet.com in the search terms to focus searching on SailNet.



Well actually I do not think "I was just kidding" is a suitable excuse for uncivil behavior. I wasn't kidding, I was over reacting.



Rich makes excellent points. Reflect on them. You might add some chartering in beautiful places like the Caribbean, Bahamas, and PNW.

If you have posted where you live I missed it.



The subject of enclosures can generate as much ire as anchors.

In my opinion they reduce flexibility, make good sail trim difficult, restrict visibility, dilute situational awareness, and separate the operator(s) from their environment. Many things on boat and sailing result from a series of compromises and many cruisers accept, with various degrees of understanding, the implications of enclosures which include lines led aft (with friction and inability to see the load being managed), additional winches, the loss of important space on the cabin top, and ingress of water through the dodger.

The impact of those compromises makes more difference offshore than near-shore or inshore.

Please note that vocabulary is important and many people use words differently. Consider context if you can't ask directly what people mean by critical words. For example, to me "offshore" means a long enough trip to be beyond the range of reliable weather forecasting. Others may consider Cape May NJ to Newport RI or Ft Lauderdale FL to Bimini Bahamas or Los Angeles CA to Catalina Island to be "offshore." I don't. Conditions can be sporty, dangerous, and people can get hurt but it isn't offshore. Newport RI to Bermuda is on the threshold of offshore. Norfolk VA outside the Gulf Stream to Tortola BVI is offshore. Bermuda to Azores is offshore. San Fransisco to Hawai'i is offshore. Accordingly, when I talk about preparing for going offshore it means something different from someone who uses the word differently and is referring to provisioning at Publix in Lake Worth FL for the hop across to the Bahamas.



Back to your original question.

In my opinion particularly small boats and particularly large boats both require more skill and experience than moderately sized boats albeit for different reasons.

One can unquestionably circle the globe on a Dana 24 (just as an example). To do so will require a great deal of thought on using storage space for food, water, spares, and other items. Weather will be even more important than for others.

Similarly a Sundeer 64 could certainly do it but the operators will need to fully understand maintenance and repair of many more systems of substantial complexity. Jerry rigging to manage failures will be complex and require more spares.

I've single-handed boats to somewhere around 70 feet. Bigger boats require more forethought and are more dependent on systems (winches, electrical systems, and hydraulics). I wouldn't mind going bigger but the opportunity hasn't presented itself. *grin* For my own boat I'm happy with a 10 LT 40 footer. I'd take her anywhere. I'd go smaller before going bigger.

While I agree with Jeff_H's suggestion that displacement is an overall better measure of "size" than boat length we do tend to use length as a metric so I'll stick with that. Keep in mind that 40 foot boats can be as light as 12,000# or approach 40,000#.

For a circumnavigation 35 to 40 feet seems to be a sweet spot for single-handers. In addition, in marinas you'll find that availability of slips goes down and unit costs (usually $/ft) go up somewhere around 40 to 45 feet. This is likely to be a bigger deal while you are preparing to leave than underway when anchoring is the norm.

The longest run I have done single-handed was seven days. I don't recommend it. There will be a couple of runs across the Pacific as long as four weeks. Crossing the Atlantic will include a couple of three weeks passages.

With respect to your research my recommendations are the following:

- the Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger website, and Beth's "The Voyager's Handbook"
- The SSCA Forum (you should join SSCA)
- Jimmy Cornell's "World Cruising Handbook" - at some point you'll want his "World Cruising Routes"
- Tania Aebi's "Maiden Voyage" (I don't think much of her later works, but this one is good)
- Richard Bode's "First You Have to Row a Little Boat"
- Joshua Slocum
- Lyn Pardey's "Care and Feeding of Sailing Crew" (I don't think much of their other works as it isn't relevant to the boats most of us sail today)

By the time you run out of those I'll have a list of the books that actually made it onto the bookshelf on Auspicious and stay there. Most of those are skills references. Where you are however it is more about the person than electrical or mechanical skills. As Rich said above, focus on you and experience. Figure out what the real questions are for you. Go sailing on as many boats as you can. Go racing. Charter. Pick up sails by walking the docks. For sure consider the source of information you receive. Not everyone with a boat really knows what they are talking about, or may have a very different context than you do.

I do regret my earlier over reaction. If you get to the Chesapeake I'll buy you a drink.
You will not get a better response and a more thoughtful, balanced set of advice, from a better source than this.

Do this ^^^^^^. I'll see you in Fiji in 2-3 years.
I 'll be broke by then so you can buy me a drink.
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  #49  
Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

when do you set off chall? im waiting for my kid to grow a bit before we head out...jajja
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Old 07-18-2014
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Re: How big is too big for one man?

Evongelo,

I have almost nothing in the way of advice to offer you, as I'm pretty much new to sailing myself. Having said that, I'd like to chime in and second the advice you've been given to actually get out there and sail as much as you can, any way you can, and as soon as you can. Having been in pretty much the same situation you are in (except my current life situation, i.e., WORK, doesn't allow me the opportunity to dream about a circumnavigation so we're confining our dreams to spending a few weeks or so cruising at at a time), we've found that many of the questions we thought we needed answers to were pretty much inconsequential, while many other things we never even considered became obviously important after spending a few hours on the water. Our new-to-us 26' Pearson is fairly easy to sail, but still very nerve-wracking to maneuver out of our slip to us. If the wind gets above 10 knots and the swells around 2' or more, it's still pretty ... ahem... "exciting"... going forward to hoist the sails.

Being a functioning sailor isn't that hard. However, the ART of sailing well and handling what nature can throw at you .. well... there's no such thing as too much experience. We have about 20 hours at this point, and have loved every minute of it. The questions I have now are SO different from the questions I thought I'd have, it makes my head spin.

Personally, I think you'd really benefit from buying a relatively cheap boat that you could spend a week or two at a time on ($5000 should do it.. maybe less)...and sailing the crap out of it. After that, you'd know what's important to YOU, and if, for real, you'd really like to do a circumnavigation. At that time, sell the boat for what you paid for it (assuming you keep it up nicely), buy the boat that will take you around the world, and go for it.

Best to you.

Barry
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