Give AIS a rest - Page 5 - SailNet Community
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post #41 of 157 Old 08-16-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Context is everything. Where are we?
We are off the coast with plenty of sea room, as I said above.

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I'm saying that you should be maintaining situational awareness
I agree, however, I read you stating that the rules always apply, which would bind you to stand on no matter how far away the opposing traffic was identified. There has to be another filter.

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and use the rules and your good judgment to make good choices.
Do the ColRegs reference good judgement for when you stand on? That's my point. Good judgement would be to give the tanker some room, even if you're stand-on, long before it's an issue. People seem to be using AIS to exercise their rights.

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In your scenario, ignoring any other relationships that may be relevant, you are stand-on and I am give-way. Fine. Stand-on.
No other relationships, as you note, and I was always planning to tack away, even if you weren't there. I see you coming 3/4 mile away and now I need to stand-on? Can't believe anyone would do that. How about a mile, two miles? How about, if my AIS simply identifies you coming over the horizon and I can't see you at all?

While I've never seen clarification and have provoked someone to produce it many times, it only seems reasonable that stand-on rules only apply when there is an actual risk of collision. Not a certainty, a risk. If you and I are 3/4 mile apart, there just isn't a risk in an open water, unrestricted, scenario I can conjure.

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And I am agreeing with you. Don't jink around. Don't delay. Make your adjustment as early as possible and then maintain course and speed. Be predictable.
For sure. As I said in the OP, move long before its an issue. We do agree. Seems many with their new toys feel more entitled than you and I.
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post #42 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Years ago I offered a suggestion to one of the marine flare (gun) manufacturers that I perceived would be a solution to constant possibility of being run-over by the large commercials when at sea.

I suggested that a flare gun 'load' be investigated that contained the appropriate sized wires or aluminum strips, etc. similar to the 'chaff' used in WW-2 be considered.

Imagine the consternation on the bridge deck of a large ship when suddenly something as large as 10 aircraft carriers suddenly appeared on the ship bridge radar screen ... that would most certainly set off a few 'alarms' on that bridge, maybe enough to wake up a bored and dozing 'bridge watch'. Apparently nothing happened with that suggestion.

I have used a white parachute flare for the same intent when a ship changed course to directly 'over me' at night, didnt respond on the VHF and obviously didnt see me - certainly got their attention, and I dont even speak or understand Ukranian.
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Last edited by RichH; 08-16-2014 at 10:47 AM.
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post #43 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Three observations:
I learned to sail on the Delaware River in a 22 footer. Lot's of commercial traffic that's moving faster than you are. Lesson #1 was stay well clear of commercial traffic because situations can develop faster than you think. Make course changes in a way that your intentions are clear.

Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs. Lesson #2 was always be aware of what's around you and make minor course changes well in advance to give yourself room and options.

Am I adding a little time getting from A to B? probably.

Does that matter to me? Nope.

Finally I don't assume somebody is at the helm. When a disabled Duck Tours Boat was run down on the Delaware no one was at the helm of the commercial vessel. Twice now I've seen power boats go by me on autopilot with no one at the helm (both were large power cruisers).

If you're in such a hurry that you can't tolerate a minor course correction to prevent a closing situation from developing then picking a vessel with a top speed of 6 or 7 knots was your first bad decision.

I'm out there to enjoy myself, why would I intentionally put myself in danger?
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post #44 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Three observations:
I learned to sail on the Delaware River in a 22 footer. Lot's of commercial traffic that's moving faster than you are. Lesson #1 was stay well clear of commercial traffic because situations can develop faster than you think. Make course changes in a way that your intentions are clear.

Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs. Lesson #2 was always be aware of what's around you and make minor course changes well in advance to give yourself room and options.

Am I'm adding a little time getting from A to B? probably.

Does that matter to me? Nope.

Finally I don't assume somebody is at the helm. When a disabled Duck Tours Boat was run down on the Delaware no one was at the helm of the commercial vessel. Twice now I've seen power boats go by me on autopilot with no one at the helm (both were large power cruisers).

If you're in such a hurry that you can't tolerate a minor course correction to prevent a closing situation from developing then picking a vessel with a top speed of 6 or 7 knots was your first bad decision.

I'm out there to enjoy myself, why would I intentionally put myself in danger?
Most are mystified by the terms PORT and STARBOARD and are too busy adjusting the boombox to pay attention to where they are going:-) I have decided that the only safe assumption is that pleasure craft have absolutely no clue as to the rules of the road. It's the same principle as when on a bike, you have to assume that person making the left turn WILL turn right in front of you.

Rich, that is a great idea. I'll bet a 12 ga. shell could be DIY stuffed with some kind of reflective material, maybe some small pieces of aluminum flashing.

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post #45 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by BoatyardBoy View Post
It's common mariner courtesy and not being a jerk because you can.
Exactly. I'd be happy to find myself in a crossing situation with you.

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Racers will, on occasional, sail by the lee with the boom on the port side (starboard tack) in order to maintain stand-on "rights."

This also why Rule 12(a) iii exists.
I know you know this, but for the record the Racing Rules don't apply to anyone who isn't racing. The COLREGS or Inland Rules as appropriate (depending on where you are with respect to the demarcation line) apply to everyone, including racers.

Still, as you point out, the racing rules are interesting to consider since so many of these discussions have already taken place among some really smart, thoughtful people.

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The problem with communicating with large ships in the open ocean is that many of the crews simply DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. So if you attempt to hail such a boat via VHF, etc. the high probability will be that they have no idea what you are saying and therefore will not answer.
There is merit in this concern. However if you are close enough to a port waters there is a good chance there will be a pilot aboard and on the bridge who will speak English. If not there is a good chance that someone aboard speaks English, often the captain. I once called Shipcom (ne AT&T High Seas Radio) with the MMSI number of a ship I really wanted to talk to; Shipcom called them on their IMO number (I can't afford to carry the directory but Shipcom has one) and the captain called back on VHF. That all took a while. *grin*

My point is in support of yours. A common language can be a problem. It's a problem on some ships where the officers speak one (or two or three) languages, the watch crew speaks another, and the day ladies speak yet another.

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
We are off the coast with plenty of sea room, as I said above.
I think I understand you question and confusion better. Thanks.

Let me try to help.

You are stand-on and I am give-way. For purposes of discussion you plan to tack onto my course, about at our CPA. It is far from clear that you can take my bow much less tack on top of me (ignoring how rude that would be). Three or four miles away with the benefit of your greater knowledge (you know your plans, I don't) you fall off 10 degrees. At that point, since you have changed course you give up stand-on status during and immediately after your course change. We're miles apart - no one cares. When things settle down (there is no time in the rules it's a judgement call - the courts can decide but by then we've all lost) you are again stand-on and I am give-way. I pass in front of you and you tack on my stern.

It is far from clear that you can take my bow much less tack on top of me (ignoring how rude that would be). Three or four miles away with the benefit of your greater knowledge (you know your plans, I don't) you fall off 10 degrees. At that point, since you have changed course you give up stand-on status during and immediately after your course change. We're miles apart - no one cares. When things settle down (there is no time in the rules it's a judgement call - the courts can decide but by then we've all lost) you are again stand-on and I am give-way. I pass in front of you and you tack on my stern.

Alternatively you are stand-on and I am give-way. For purposes of discussion you plan to tack about a 1/4 mile before our CPA. You're watching me and I'm watching you. For two recreational boats, 1/4 mile is pretty far (20 boat lengths). You get to the point you planned to tack (maybe even a little early) and tack. Great. You are not stand-on during your tack. Now we are both on port tack and you are windward boat. I'm stand-on and you are give-way. For whatever reason (I'm making this up of course) you aren't pointing as high as I am and CPA is disturbingly close to zero. *grin* I'm stand-on but that doesn't prevent me from taking action (ease sails to slow down, point higher, whatever) recognizing that during the time I am changing things I am not stand-on.

Ultimately we are both responsible for avoiding collision. Stand-on and give-way just define predictable roles.

The rules always apply. They don't say you must stand on no matter how far away the opposing traffic was identified. They say if you change course and speed you are not stand-on until your course and speed are stable for a reasonable time. "Reasonable" is a judgment on the water. If someone has poor judgment it becomes a matter for insurance companies and courts.

Quote:
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People seem to be using AIS to exercise their rights.
Unfortunate. AIS is a tool for understanding and communication.

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post #46 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs.
To pick a pretty important nit, both those places fall under the Inland Rules, not the COLREGS. They are almost the same but not entirely. Everyone should know the difference. As you so aptly point out, many people on the water don't even know they exist much less what they require.

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post #47 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

man...
good points as always auspicious...

just be curteous and avoid collisions I really dont understand why you want to delve into this more...

are you seriously telling me cruisers out there today are looking at their ais screens and radar and one hand on vhf ready to slam on a big ship or approaching vessel and ready to say:

what are your intentions?

good grief!

whats the point? you can do this on your computer back home in your basement...

enjoy the sea...the water and fellow sailors and mariners...

peace
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post #48 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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I have worried for a while that AIS would cause problems when it became commonplace.

Pity the people with their new toys don't know how to make an mmsi call. That would spare all the CH16 listeners.

I like to keep a radio watch at all times and feel everyone should but in the high season so much of the chatter is crap. I've taken to using my handheld in a pfd pocket for my radio watch because the low antenna height filters a lot out. I can always hear the USCG and I can hear boats within a few miles. At my max speed of 7 knots radio transmissions that are several miles away are not relevant to me.

Medsailor
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post #49 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

AIS sure is a great earlier warning device. Not every vessel is emmitting a signal and no guarantee they are watching anyway. I assume that most are bigger , faster and much less aware than I as it's not who's right, it's who's left.
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post #50 of 157 Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Rules of the Road

Rule 1: The larger vessel (cargo ship) will crush you smaller vessel as you quote nav regs. On the way to the bottom perhaps you can get a lawyer and sue.

Rule 2: The larger vessels (usually cargo ships) will come to your rescue when you are in the middle of no where and are in distress.

Rule 3: Don't piss off the guys who drive big vessels they are earning a living and are carrying our boat parts and other important things like food.

Rule 4: Don't be in a hurry, pass astern of large boats...guaranteed you won't get run over....unless they are towing a barge
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