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  #61  
Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

I

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats. This makes no sense and is a tacit approval of the idea that big boats do not need to follow the rules of the road just because they are bigger. Perhaps some enforcement of the rules would remedy this issue.

As to your last point, there is no contradiction whatsoever. When a large ship overtakes you in completely open water, seen miles away, not responding to any communication, not indicating its intention by legal sound signals, changing course, and proceeding at three times your speed, overtaking you rapidly, I challenge any sailboat to avoid being run down. You simply cannot tell where they are heading to maneuver out of the way. THEY NEED TO AVOID YOU!! The only thing you can do is try to figure out which side he MAY pass you on and turn at the last minute to avoid being hit. I had this exact thing happen a couple of years back. The ship was a foreign tanker and could have just as well hit me as not as he passed within 50 meters. I was simply lucky.

There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.
Not at all, my posts has been how it's easier for a smaller pleasure boat with no real schedule to alter course and give commercial vessel, large or small, some room so they can continue working. It's just courtesy. But don't get me wrong, I fully agree that there are bone heads out there, heck I went through the Academy with some that had no clue but they were smart so they passed the license tests.

I wasn't sure about your situation, which is why I asked. I run into this situation almost every time I'm underway with the commercial Shrimping boats. They don't respond to radio, are worse than the typical weekend warrior sailors in regards to no clue to rules, and they change direction without notice even after you changed your course to avoid them. These guys drag nets in the channel, right inside the jetties coming in from sea... the worst. I have to either reduce speed by half sometimes or come almost 90* either which way to avoid them. If you find yourself in a similar situation again, I would turn hard over and just continue perpendicular to his course till the ship is past. This way you aren't close enough to have to turn at the last minute or worry about which side he will pass you on. But hindsight right...

Oh Yea definitely a lot of terrible captains out there.. In any industry or sport or past time you always have those few people that bring the rest down.

Christian,

In those cases, human error is always present. Always will. I had to do a presentation on a casually report of a collision between two ship in Galveston while at the academy. It's crazy how much they dissect the incident, everything and everyone is looked at.
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  #62  
Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

a good report to look at(sailboat wise) is the "low speed" racing sailboat incident one where 3 or 4 sailors were lost racing around the farallones off san francisco a year ago or so...

in regards to how they dissect each case and appoint fault etc...even though it was not a collision between 2 boats...the information garnered and later explained was impressive...

in any case

what academy did you go to?

good stuff
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  #63  
Old 08-16-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
a good report to look at(sailboat wise) is the "low speed" racing sailboat incident one where 3 or 4 sailors were lost racing around the farallones off san francisco a year ago or so...

in regards to how they dissect each case and appoint fault etc...even though it was not a collision between 2 boats...the information garnered and later explained was impressive...

in any case

what academy did you go to?

good stuff
Oh yea, after the coast Guard is finished with their reports, then the class societies(Lloyds, ABS) if it's a classed vessel, then the lawyers.. It's quite a lengthy report.

I went to Texas A&M Texas Maritime Academy in Galveston.
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  #64  
Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
The problem was that a trainee was at the helm and when the captain told her to turn to port she turned to starboard and ran completely over the sailboat (the skipper survived, boat didn't).
A minor digression, but there is good reason many maritime organizations including the US Navy use "left" and "right" for helm commands. Nothing you can do about people with mild dyslexia but you can avoid letting vocabulary get in the way of performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatyardBoy View Post
In regards to language, every licensed officer of navigational watch is required to speak the language of the sea, which is English.
Some are better than others of course, and there are always cultural issues. For example, I sometimes hear foreign watch officers calling USCG Sector Baltimore or the Annapolis Harbormaster (!) asking permission to send crew ashore on leave. *grin* It happens often enough that Sector Baltimore appears to have added a page to their flip book to make sure crew have cleared C&I then just give permission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats.
I have not inferred that from anyone else's posts and certainly did not imply it in my own. There is a big difference between "should" and "must."

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.
There have been a very small number of really bad performers in the news. There are some historically poor seamen, particularly among large ferries including the Staten Island Ferry and the Isle of Wight Ferry and--I'm told--some in the PNW who seem to operate as if they ran on rails. Regardless they are at least predictable, which is more than can be said about most recreational boaters.

My experience with commercial traffic has been pretty positive.

Large traffic is not nearly as maneuverable as you describe. Although people with personal experience to that effect, including me, have said otherwise you persist in your belief. I'm not sure what we can do make reality evident to you. We haven't even talked about restricted sightlines and visibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
thats where courtesy and in my opinion simple prudent seamanship plays a more important role than whatever rule is written.
Exactly. Ultimately the rules are the rules but as I noted earlier some simple civility goes a long way.

Hmm. Perhaps I can talk to Judith Martin about a column in Maritime Reporter or Maritime Log. Maybe gCaptain would host a blog ....
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  #65  
Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Large traffic is not nearly as maneuverable as you describe. Although people with personal experience to that effect, including me, have said otherwise you persist in your belief. I'm not sure what we can do make reality evident to you. We haven't even talked about restricted sightlines and visibility.
Absolutely no disagreement that large vessels are not immediately maneuverable. This is progressively true even for smaller craft in smaller spaces. It's obvious. My issue is that large ships need to be responsive to essential contact, need to have someone responsible at the helm, use horn signals to indicate on which side they intend to pass (that is SUCH a simple thing to do), and be aware of the non-ability of small, slow sailboats and trawler type boats to maneuver out of their way. It can't be a case of, "I'm coming through and I'm bigger. Get out of the way." Having to alter course at a 90 degree angle when a large ship appears on the horizon and scurry out of the way of ANY possible path they may take is ludicrous and should not be expected. As I said, some enforcement against the few irresponsible commercial guys who blatantly scoff at rights of way and behave like bullies of the sea would go a LONG way to putting a muzzle on this kind of behavior. Instead of doing boardings of pleasure boats, looking for missing MARPOLE stickers, maybe the CG could catch some of the cowboys in action and give them a slap on the wrist once in a while.

I have transited NY Harbor many, many times and have never had any issue whatsoever with the ferries or taxis. They seem to be very good at knowing and abiding by the simple rules of the road. They strike me as pros. in a very difficult piece of water. That's the key to it all: that all parties KNOW the rights of way in the body of water they are operating in. They work and work well if adhered to.
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Last edited by smurphny; 08-17-2014 at 11:07 AM. Reason: sp
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  #66  
Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

there is nothing more admirable to me than a real captain, a real mariner, a true pro like you say...

Ill agree with that...wish more were like that really, especially in major ports and harbors...

In san francisco there have been endless debates about some of these pros, pilots, etc that get paid gazillions yet often have the worst record...

the pay pilots get in some harbors has been heavily criticised in times of recession...

anyone who reads latitude 38 and other west coast mags and articles knows about this...and when they top it off with some major bad decisions like the coco busan that hit the south tower you can see why there are sentiments that want the merchant mariners to be BETTER.

we can all be BETTER, know the rules more clearly and act accordingly out there in the water or open sea or river or wherever

I do however beleive wholeheartedly that repeat experience and on the water time and seamanship garnered from being out there is much more important than knowing all the rules...

seamanship should have an alter ego name or superhero alternate name called COMMON SENSE

youd be surprised how your brain reacts out there sometimes...sometimes you know instantly the course of action to take, others not so clearly, say if your cold, tired etc...

thats where the rules come in...

nobody is going to side with you if you are for example a tired solo sailor who despite doing something marvelous like sail around the world decided to crash into another boat from extreme exhaustion despite him being on stbd tack or whatever

anywhoo

lets all strive to be better out there and instead of always laying blame on others simply avoid creating any sort of bad situation...

honestly its easier than it seems...
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  #67  
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatyardBoy View Post
I



Not at all, my posts has been how it's easier for a smaller pleasure boat with no real schedule to alter course and give commercial vessel, large or small, some room so they can continue working. It's just courtesy. But don't get me wrong, I fully agree that there are bone heads out there, heck I went through the Academy with some that had no clue but they were smart so they passed the license tests.

I wasn't sure about your situation, which is why I asked. I run into this situation almost every time I'm underway with the commercial Shrimping boats. They don't respond to radio, are worse than the typical weekend warrior sailors in regards to no clue to rules, and they change direction without notice even after you changed your course to avoid them. These guys drag nets in the channel, right inside the jetties coming in from sea... the worst. I have to either reduce speed by half sometimes or come almost 90* either which way to avoid them. If you find yourself in a similar situation again, I would turn hard over and just continue perpendicular to his course till the ship is past. This way you aren't close enough to have to turn at the last minute or worry about which side he will pass you on. But hindsight right...

Oh Yea definitely a lot of terrible captains out there.. In any industry or sport or past time you always have those few people that bring the rest down.

Christian,

In those cases, human error is always present. Always will. I had to do a presentation on a casually report of a collision between two ship in Galveston while at the academy. It's crazy how much they dissect the incident, everything and everyone is looked at.
You've got that right. I used to be in the commercial fishing business and know totally irresponsible fishing boat operators. They are working and usually don't give a crap about rules. Many don't even know the basic rules of the road and have a screw-you attitude towards any pleasure boat that happens to be in their way. It's just the way it is. It's a rough business. You have to give them a WIDE berth:-) I love it when they come through inlets, outriggers wide open.
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  #68  
Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Digging deep into history, I recall how difficult it once was to determine whether a crossing tanker was going to be a collision hazard (certainly no AIS at the time). Their size made them appear closer than they were and moving more slowly than they were. More often than not, they were long, long, long gone, before I was ever close to their path.

I will bet there are some recreational sailors that have bitched that the tanker didn't give way and moved themselves, while the tanker knew all along there was no risk. So, what CPA distance constitutes a need for anyone to alter course?

In the end, if you're not at risk of swapping paint, no one needs to give way.
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  #69  
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Re: Give AIS a rest

one could counter that by saying, if you want to have peace and a nice sail one can always give way
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Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

Our standing and night orders call for a 1nm cpa from rigs and platforms here in the Gulf, but sometimes their proximity is hard to get away from the closer you get to the coast. We treat other vessels with same respect and give them the same, though you do what you can when you can.
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