Give AIS a rest - Page 8 - SailNet Community
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post #71 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
It can't be a case of, "I'm coming through and I'm bigger. Get out of the way." Having to alter course at a 90 degree angle when a large ship appears on the horizon and scurry out of the way of ANY possible path they may take is ludicrous and should not be expected.
The reason I said that was because you weren't sure it's intentions and didn't have contact with bridge. Had you done that you might not have had a close encounter with the vessel. It may seem ludicrous but if you don't get ran down, it's not so ludicrous. I have had to turn almost that to go to the stern of a ship, but we don't mess with them, they are bigger and faster than my 300' vessel. I had rights but it was too easy for me to slow up a bit and alter course. You'd be surprised what just shaving off a knot or two and a 5-10 degree change will dramatically change cpa.
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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one could counter that by saying, if you want to have peace and a nice sail one can always give way
Exactly. As long as you begin far enough away that you would not yet be expected to stand-on.
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Our standing and night orders call for a 1nm cpa from rigs and platforms.......
Must not be the standing orders for coastal freight around here. I mean a mile is a long way. I could go down below, use the head, fix a sandwich and be back to the helm before I transit a mile. Not to mention, that's the closest we would be.

I will bet that some new AIS users see a quarter mile CPA and start to freak. I wouldn't want to cross a tanker's bow by a quarter mile, but I'll take their stern at that distance without second thought.

When it comes to another sailboat, I wont' give way unless I expect to pass inside a boat length. You can tell the racers from the cruisers or newbs when you do that.
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post #74 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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And it is clear that you have not read the rules nor do you understand them.

The rules make the actions of vessels predictable. That is what everyone should want.
Oh yes indeedy, I "have not read the rules nor do you understand them." There you go, assuming, and we all know what that does, don't we?
No, it is much clearer YOU have never stood 80 feet up on the bridge of a vessel moving at 18 knots watching some idiot on a sailboat trying to get across your bow before he gets run down. Nor have you probably operated a tug and barge, watching some fool sail between you and your tow on a clear, sunny day.
Rules may very well be out there to cover every situation, but they do not cover the idiot who screams in panic into the radio (on ch 16) that he has the right of way as he is under sail, when both vessels are in a confined channel, because you are neither altering course nor slowing down.
You are obviously one of those who will be absolved of blame in the inquiry into your death, because you were following the rules when the situation required common sense, not a rule book.
Sorry, you and I will never agree on this one. Common sense trumps the rule book every single time.

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post #75 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
I love it when they come through inlets, outriggers wide open.
Some are not fishing outriggers, they are stabilizers. Keeping them deployed with full reefers might well be prudent given adequate width in the inlet.
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post #76 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Oh yes indeedy, I "have not read the rules nor do you understand them." There you go, assuming, and we all know what that does, don't we?
No, it is much clearer YOU have never stood 80 feet up on the bridge of a vessel moving at 18 knots watching some idiot on a sailboat trying to get across your bow before he gets run down. Nor have you probably operated a tug and barge, watching some fool sail between you and your tow on a clear, sunny day.
Rules may very well be out there to cover every situation, but they do not cover the idiot who screams in panic into the radio (on ch 16) that he has the right of way as he is under sail, when both vessels are in a confined channel, because you are neither altering course nor slowing down.
You are obviously one of those who will be absolved of blame in the inquiry into your death, because you were following the rules when the situation required common sense, not a rule book.
Sorry, you and I will never agree on this one. Common sense trumps the rule book every single time.
Capta - you are correct. I have no experience on large commercial vessels

The vast majority of my 36,000 miles, 4 passages and 12 circumnavigations of Vancouver Island have been on sailboats and I have some mileage on powerboats.

On at least two occasions crews on ocean going vessels have mistaken my lights (sidelights and stern light) for a fishing vessel.

I also know that sailing vessels and others are not stand-on in TSSs, narrow channels and many harbours.

I do use AIS when available, I also use hand bearing compasses, MARPA and EBLs. I have also used VHF to communicate with tugs to sort out overtaking and cross situations. I also have contacted ocean fishing vessels to determine the location and depth of their nets.

You are also correct that the the rules do not cover idiots. I was concerned when I heard a sailing vessel challenge a tug and tow in Haro Strait which is a TSS. I have had stand-on sailing vessels alter course as I gave way putting us on another collision course. I have a port tack DDW wing-on-wing vessel I give the finger when I had to cut under his stern as he merrily went his own way. Power boats on auto-helm have caused my to alter course, luff up and take other evasive action.

That is why I am largely opposed to those who say read a book on sailing and just go. Education is essential for anyone who wants to play in the big ocean with big vessels.

For those who understand and apply the rules the oceans are safer, but no rule should be applied blindly. Of course, Colregs do account for idiots in Rules 2 and 17(b). Unfortunately that puts the onus on the crew that knows the rules.

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post #77 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Some are not fishing outriggers, they are stabilizers. Keeping them deployed with full reefers might well be prudent given adequate width in the inlet.
They are always the outriggers for the stabilizer birds on trawlers. Most often though, the birds are not even down yet. They could well wait until they are out of the narrow inlet to lower the arms.

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Re: Give AIS a rest

Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tUoUxzt9sI

I have been told by my UK friends that the racing rules specifically state "don't screw with the commercial traffic!" Of course they say it in Brit.

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post #79 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
They are always the outriggers for the stabilizer birds on trawlers. Most often though, the birds are not even down yet. They could well wait until they are out of the narrow inlet to lower the arms.
I think that's a judgment call and I defer to the skipper. Deciding to put the stabilizing outriggers down in flat water might well be a prudent call in the interest of safety of crew and vessel.

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Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........



I have been told by my UK friends that the racing rules specifically state "don't screw with the commercial traffic!" Of course they say it in Brit.
Every race I've been in as included giving way to commercial traffic in the Instructions. Automatic DSQ.

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post #80 of 157 Old 08-17-2014
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Re: Give AIS a rest

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Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tUoUxzt9sI

I have been told by my UK friends that the racing rules specifically state "don't screw with the commercial traffic!" Of course they say it in Brit.
I have read briefly thru almost all posts, prolly missed some info but in the above situation I don't think the sailboat was the stand on vessel. As I am sure many of you would agree with based solely on the rules of gross tonnage,no such rule, BUT..... There are also rules in place for such situations which trump the basic stand on-give way situation, in this instance I am sure this tanker was constrained by her draft, restricted in her maneuverability and operating in a narrow channel. All of which would have made given her the right of way making her the stand on vessel.

I know here in Hampton Roads the deep water channels extend miles off shore, where all of the above rules would still apply to give the larger vessel right of way.

As has been stated many times, use common sense. And USE your radio that's is why you have it. If you are in a heavy commercial area monitor 16 and 13. 13 is used and monitored by commercial mariners and if you hail them they will respond. Many days I have been out near Thimble Shoals Channel (main entrance to Hampton Roads) and have been hailed by a large tanker asking me where I was going. Our conversation was always short and to the point. Best of all made for safe passage for both vessel.

Just remember as a captain of any vessel if there is a safety device on your boat such as AIS, RADAR, RADIO and you fail to use it and there is an accident the Coast Guard will find you to some degree to be at fault. Very rarely in accidents at sea does the coast guard find fault with just one captain when more than one vessel is involved.


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