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post #1 of 7 Old 10-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Keeping Watch

For anyone who has faith that someone aboard a big ship can see your little tiny boat and will do the right thing, please watch this video.
As I've said over and over again, the ColRegs are NOT of any value in the REAL WORLD. Do any of you doubt that both these ships had AIS, radar, people awake (they are nearing the entrance to the Suez Canal), on watch and communicating with each other? And yet......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ktwo-k-onk

"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.

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post #2 of 7 Old 10-03-2014
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Re: Keeping Watch

Hang on, hang on a sec....
That video is doing the rounds of the forums and its not quite as it seems...

Theres also the video of the AIS.

It was inside the suez canal and both ships had pilots aboard.

I havent read the other forums threads because its of little interest to me.. Pilots in taht corrupt of corrupt waterway are little more than criminals and you can't expect a criminal to have much value in safety.

And you are right about Colregs... Colregs dont cover Suez. Da pilots are in charge... So go back to the line about corruption lol


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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 10-03-2014 at 03:32 PM.
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post #3 of 7 Old 10-03-2014
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Re: Keeping Watch

Sorry Capta, can't help myself. Overtaking, narrow channel, then a left hook. Somebody lost their license that day

Seriously, I agree with you. Don't press your rights with the big guys. Size and brains are not correlated. And BTW/you wouldn't have any rights in that narrow channel even if you were sailing. And no matter what the rules say, the big guys don't have brakes
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post #4 of 7 Old 10-03-2014
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Re: Keeping Watch

Seems to me that was no accident. Long after collision the black ship was still under full power with prop-wash clearly evident in the wake.

Even broken steering would not prevent some way from being taken off prior to and after collision.


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post #5 of 7 Old 10-04-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
For anyone who has faith that someone aboard a big ship can see your little tiny boat and will do the right thing, please watch this video.
As I've said over and over again, the ColRegs are NOT of any value in the REAL WORLD. Do any of you doubt that both these ships had AIS, radar, people awake (they are nearing the entrance to the Suez Canal), on watch and communicating with each other? And yet......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ktwo-k-onk
They ARE of value in the real world. That is a ridiculous statement to make, as they wouldn't be IN the real world if they didn't have any value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Hang on, hang on a sec....
That video is doing the rounds of the forums and its not quite as it seems...

Theres also the video of the AIS.

It was inside the suez canal and both ships had pilots aboard.

I havent read the other forums threads because its of little interest to me.. Pilots in taht corrupt of corrupt waterway are little more than criminals and you can't expect a criminal to have much value in safety.

And you are right about Colregs... Colregs dont cover Suez. Da pilots are in charge... So go back to the line about corruption lol

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HMV7W0QClkA

Mark
I seriously doubt that these pilots you speak of are little more than criminals. If you have some proof of this I'd like it to surface.

Second, the pilots are NOT in charge. They are local hired professional help that aid the master in navigating through a specified waterway that the ship's bridge officers may otherwise not know said waterway well. At NO time is the master relieved of his position or authority. They are usually required, but all fault in a situation like this falls on the ship not the pilots.

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Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
Seems to me that was no accident. Long after collision the black ship was still under full power with prop-wash clearly evident in the wake.

Even broken steering would not prevent some way from being taken off prior to and after collision.
I almost guarantee you it was an an accident, it would be silly to even attempt to think it wasn't. They were still under power because they need to keep steerage. You can just stop and pull over when you get in a wreck like a car. They have to slow down, slowly. Getting into an collision at sea is bad enough, they didn't want to add running around to that as well.


Lastly, to explain why it was an accident. This is a narrow channel, we know this. When you have two deep draft vessels in a narrow channel, hydrodynamics start to really come into play. What happened to the passing vessel is call bank suction. When the depth of water decreases, the stern of the boat starts to shear to the shallow side of the channel. This caused the bow to head to port. It's a fine line and once it starts, and not corrected in a timely manner, can't be stopped with ships this size. These aren't capable at maneuvering vessels, they are made for open ocean and going straight.

Here's a short rundown of it for those who are ignorant of bank effects:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_effect

Crap happens, and it has probably been done that same way before many times. Both are going to be found a fault. The passing ship should have been more prudent and not tried to overtake. And the standon vessel could have avoided it by not agreeing with the overtaking situation in the first place. The master of the overtaking vessel could have said no, we're not overtaking in this narrow channel because of possible bank suction.

But in any case, no professional mariner, not myself, not one, would want to purposely cause a collision or allision or any maritime casualty for that matter. Its license revocation, loss of employment, possible fines, possible criminal charges and jail time, possible loss of life on your hands, why would anyone want that?
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post #6 of 7 Old 10-04-2014
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Re: Keeping Watch

Well, Iv'e been through there and I wouldnt trust them with last weeks newspaper let alone playing with a ship...

BTW they were under control of VTS.

So you want to disclaim fault of both pilots and the VTS?

Great way to run a water filled ditch

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post #7 of 7 Old 10-04-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Keeping Watch

[quote=BoatyardBoy;2248905]They ARE of value in the real world. That is a ridiculous statement to make, as they wouldn't be IN the real world if they didn't have any value.

If you are speaking of commercial traffic, then the ColRegs do have a place in the safe operation of vessels, though they do not supersede the responsibility of those operating the vessels. If you are, as I was, talking of yachts in relation to commercial traffic, then there is nothing ridiculous about the statement. At best they are a guide to what you might expect from the guy on the bridge, but that is the very best one on a small craft can hope for. In reality, most small craft operators have absolutely no idea of what that ship is capable of doing to avoid a collision. In most cases the best guess of the small craft operator is way off. As one of the few unlimited masters and sailing circumnavigators on here, I have a pretty good idea what's really going on, both on the bridge and in the cockpit.

[QUOTE=BoatyardBoy;2248905]I almost guarantee you it was an an accident, it would be silly to even attempt to think it wasn't. They were still under power because they need to keep steerage. You can just stop and pull over when you get in a wreck like a car. They have to slow down, slowly. Getting into an collision at sea is bad enough, they didn't want to add running around to that as well.

I have done the Suez Canal and I can assure you that at no time are vessels allowed to pass, come abreast of or get close to one another. Traffic is one way and very closely monitored, with a specific distance mandated between vessels. Speed is closely monitored and transgressor vessels can and are banned from using the canal. Therefor, what we see in this video cannot be a mistake or accident. It could only be caused by an intentional act. Why the captains of both vessels allowed it to happen, I have no idea, for you are correct about that; they are ultimately responsible at all times. Therefor, the following paragraph, as accurate as it is in regards to the physical aspects of the bank effect (which any sensitive sailor can feel in the ICW), cannot be correct. Some how, for some reason, these two pilots and two captains must have knowingly allowed this to happen. Therefor, this is not an accident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatyardBoy View Post
Lastly, to explain why it was an accident. This is a narrow channel, we know this. When you have two deep draft vessels in a narrow channel, hydrodynamics start to really come into play. What happened to the passing vessel is call bank suction. When the depth of water decreases, the stern of the boat starts to shear to the shallow side of the channel. This caused the bow to head to port. It's a fine line and once it starts, and not corrected in a timely manner, can't be stopped with ships this size. These aren't capable at maneuvering vessels, they are made for open ocean and going straight.
But in any case, no professional mariner, not myself, not one, would want to purposely cause a collision or allision or any maritime casualty for that matter. Its license revocation, loss of employment, possible fines, possible criminal charges and jail time, possible loss of life on your hands, why would anyone want that?

"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.

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