Keel type? - Page 5 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 08-19-2006
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryrlitton
I do not have much sailing experience but my time is in aviation. There is a lot of correlation here since it is all fluid dynamics and the keel depth type etc discussion is a lot like a weight and balance problem. Remember the simple mathematical formula… weight X arm = moment. Where the depth (Length?) of the keel is the arm. Also whenever vortices are formed you also find drag. Just like whenever lift is formed you make drag. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jerry
Yes, but the weight of the arm must also be considered. The righting moment of a typical fin keel is the mass of the keel * X% of the length, which is determined by the center of mass of the keel. A bulb keel has a greater righting arm than a fin keel of the same draft and mass, as the mass of the keel is concentrated further out, in the bulb.

Captnero— I was speaking specifically, and only about stability and righting moment, and not the sailing performance of the boat. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was speaking of sailing performance. Sailing performance of a boat is affected by much more than the shape of the keel, though the shape of the keel is an important factor to consider. I don't see any real advantages in a wing keel, when it comes to providing stability, over a bulb keel. However, the wing keels have serious disadvantages IMHO and experience, over bulb keels—so there is no reason to have one as far as I am concerned.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #42  
Old 08-22-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
the same page

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
...
Captnero— I was speaking specifically, and only about stability and righting moment, and not the sailing performance of the boat. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was speaking of sailing performance. Sailing performance of a boat is affected by much more than the shape of the keel, though the shape of the keel is an important factor to consider. I don't see any real advantages in a wing keel, when it comes to providing stability, over a bulb keel. However, the wing keels have serious disadvantages IMHO and experience, over bulb keels—so there is no reason to have one as far as I am concerned.
Selecting a keel type for a sailboat without considering windward lift is like picking sunglasses without considering UV rays.

SailingDog and Jeff_H - My concern is what SailingDog intended by not discussing windward lift while discussing shortened keel design. Without quoting Jotun's intial post of this thread (Keel type?), suffice to say that it defintely was not restricted to only stability and grounding effects of keels. Hence I interjected the relevance of windward lift as bulb configurations were discussed. If the relevance of windward lift is acknowledged then at least we're on the same page again. Of course sailing performance has other factors, but since the thread was about keel types I only wrote about sailing performance related to keel design.

I will relate two recent experiences I've had related to grounding near the South River and near the Choptank River. I hope that is sufficiently close to what one would consider to be Jotun's "Northern Chesapeake". About a year ago I saw someone with a shoal draft bulb keel quickly and hopelessly grounded in a deep heel. It took the professional tow boat an hour to pull it free. Then just this spring our engine quit due to a cracked filter screw while we were exiting a tight anchorage into the wind. We raised sail but were not able to get enough room so I resorted to Plan B and grounded our wing keel on a muddy shoal. Then as soon as we luffed and dropped sail, the wing leveled shallower and we just floated free. For those needing closure, we were then able to kedge into a better sailing position and sail out of the anchorage into the wind. If we had a bulb or fin of the same depth, we would have had to kedge off of that shoal first or perhaps I wouldn't have risked putting a heeled non-wing keel on a shoal at all.

If you go back to Australia II's successful use of a wing in 1983, it was a rule beater for racing vessels constrained by draft and was the first competitive America's cup challenger in many, many years and of course the first winner. From a performance standpoint the wing certainly was not a liability when compared to Liberty's equal draft non-wing. When Dennis Conner's team recaptured the Cup in 1987, Stars and Stripes was sporting a wing to beat the same rule and the defender. In the case of cruisers constrained by draft such as Jotun's Northern Chesapeake, the wing keel is a draft beater. Under sail it mostly behaves like a somewhat deeper keel with windward effects beyond a bulb, yet allows one into shallower anchorages.

Wing keels sprouted on production boats in the late 80's in high numbers. As a practical matter, if Jotun is considering 30 foot vessels of those heyday years, then eliminating wing keels from the mix will likely eliminate many otherwise acceptable vessels. In my own experience, such elimination is not necessary.

The real hazard for a wing is to motor quickly onto a shoal with a slight incline, while the fin or bulb is most vulnerable when deeply heeled. The width of the wing simply does not allow it to climb up a steeper incline, although you stop quickly. I've also found that when the wing is level it gives a little more warning when an uneven bottom is coming up, since it's width is more likely to touch the higher bumps than a fin or a bulb.

I was puzzled to hear that a professional tow boat in one of the posts would attempt to heel a wing off of a shoal. Also, two hours is a long time to be yanking on the boat's structure. I know that some tow boats carry flotation bags. That would seem to be a better strategy for a difficult grounding, but obviously I don't operate a tow boat. There is an issue about the use of lift bags triggering salvage rights. If that is the case it is unethical. That's part of why I now have my own lift bags.

Regardless of the keel, in most cases if one can simply wait for high tide, towing will not be necessary. I once heard of a well known Chesapeake cruiser who runs aground frequently when exploring and gets out a book until high tide. The tow boats are for when you are unfortunate enough to ground at high tide or you just can't wait that long.

Last edited by captnnero; 08-22-2006 at 04:00 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #43  
Old 08-22-2006
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by captnnero
Regardless of the keel, in most cases if one can simply wait for high tide, towing will not be necessary. I once heard of a well known Chesapeake cruiser who runs aground frequently when exploring and gets out a book until high tide. The tow boats are for when you are unfortunate enough to ground at high tide or you just can't wait that long.
Very true.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #44  
Old 09-17-2006
SailorMitch's Avatar
Senior Moment
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,931
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
SailorMitch will become famous soon enough
Cool Breaking all the rules...

Quote:
Originally Posted by yotphix
As a former great lakes towboat operator I can tell you that of the several boats i have pulled out of the sand off Toronto Island the most difficult by far was a wing keel that had motored on. It took two towboats at full throttle after a couple of hours of twisting and attempting to heel with the mast had zero effect.
Yotphix -- sounds like you and your pal spent two hours twisting and heeling that wing into the sand as though it were a screwpile for a lighthouse. Rule number one for a wing is to keep the boat level of course, so why twist and heel at all? I've always thought that if I ever do need help getting off the bottom with my wing, the best way is simply to pull the boat out backwards the way it went in. Plus, on my keel, the wings don't start until about the aft half of the keel. It's very possible that the wings won't be stuck at all.

Yes, folks, catching up with some old business before I DIE STUCK FOREVER ON SOME SHOAL BECAUSE OF THIS DAMNED WINGED KEEL ON MY PEARSON!!

Yes, that is my keel in my avatar.
__________________
SailorMitch
Sailing winged keels since 1989.
1.20.09 Bush's last day the end of an error !! Hopefully we still have a constitution and economy left by then.


"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength." The Dalai Lama


good planets are hard to find-- a song by steve forbert


I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging the future but by the past.-- Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #45  
Old 09-18-2006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,285
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 9
Rockter will become famous soon enough
If you ever get into issues with salvage with floatation bags (or any other issue), make it clear up front, with witnesses, or call the marina to witness it, that you are CONTRACTING the floatation bags to re-float you. You pay for the floatation, and they have no claim on the vesel.

The world is full of crooks.... be careful. At the first sign of reluctance on the part of the outfit rendering the service, you will know what they are up to, or may be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windward performance deseely General Discussion (sailing related) 21 04-01-2012 03:42 PM
reducing keel/adding fin? abacosol Gear & Maintenance 9 07-01-2007 10:32 PM
Best type of keel halsmithjr Seamanship & Navigation 10 07-01-2006 01:18 PM
Iron Keels mogul11 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 3 07-08-2002 04:36 AM
Winged Keels Pros & Cons OldGlory Boat Review and Purchase Forum 13 04-09-2002 06:51 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:41 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.