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a PHRF rating of 102

4K views 25 replies 18 participants last post by  robert sailor 
#1 · (Edited)
Curiosity finally got the best of me and I looked up the PHRF for my Pearson. I've seen so many discussions about this in relation to cruising boats, yet I guess I don't understand what it really means off the race course.
I read about the 9 seconds per mile and all that seems fine for division racing, as we used to call it, but what has that got to do with how well my boat will do crossing a channel in 20 to 25 knots of wind with 6 to 8 foot seas, reefed as in the pic to the left? Why would it be something I'd even care about if I was choosing a cruising boat, not a racer?
Anybody care to enlighten an old (sea) dog?
 
#5 ·
I think it would be measure of sailing performance.

It matters because if you want to get across said channel, then you want a boat that points higher, or can get back up to speed when said 6-8ft seas knock it down. A better rating typically indicates these attributes. Speed is involved but has more to do with LWL than total performance.

If you don't mind only pointing 70* from the wind, get a boat with a higher number. Vice versa.

Also, the better your rating, the more clout you have at the nearest yacht club. :)

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
 
#6 ·
Most cruisers DON'T care, but in your case you must care just a little bit or you wouldn't have, a: looked up your rating, and b:started this thread!

PHRF ratings are a part of a handicap system that attempts to level the playing field a bit so that dissimilar boats can race against each other. The number is meant to reflect the relative performance of your boat to others based on design, sailplan, and historical performance of your particular model. What it doesn't reflect is how your boat will perform in specific conditions, for example I would expect your boat to perform close to it's rating in the heavy air reach you describe, but will likely be much slower than it's rating in light air.

In general, however, the phrf rating will give you an idea how fast you SHOULD be relative to other boats. If your friend who is a sailing a boat that rates 150 is keeping up with you on that channel crossing you describe, then it is an indication that you are not getting the most out of your boat. When it comes to selecting a boat the phrf rating can be helpful if sailing performance is important to you. If all that matters to you is creature comfort, even if the boat sails like a pig, then phrf numbers are completely irrelevant.
 
#7 ·
Actually, it's more than just boat speed. It's a measure of overall boat performance when compared with all other boats. If you were looking for a cruising boat, it's PHRF rating would give you a general idea of how it will perform. A lower number means it will be capable of higher speed and better pointing than a boat with a higher number. You'll be able to get to your destination a bit faster, and, because of it's better pointing ability, you'll travel a slightly shorter distance to get there. Moreover, a boat that can point well can claw off a lee shore, if necessitated by an engine that fails to start. If a person was considering buying one of two boats that are comparable in every way, but one has a lower PHRF number than the other, most people would opt to buy the one that promised better overall performance.
 
#8 ·
One issue is phrf is it is generated for a particular region and for the typical range of sailing conditions in that region.
It doesn't speak to diagonals, displacement or even the made up term of comfort quotient.
What maybe well rated in the summer light air of the Chesapeake or Mass Bay may not do so well in the strong winds of SF bay or the winter Xmas winds of the Caribbean. Taking a sled to Hawaii is different than going SD to San Juans.
As a cruiser, hopefully, you will be in many regions. As you know, gentleman don't go to weather, is nonsense.
So far our goal has always been to keep the boat at hull speed. Compared to prior boats we are closer to achieving this. However, all to frequently we throttle back or fall a bit more off the wind so we can be more comfortable and less stressed about the boat.
We rate 90 in our summer home waters of New England. What's infinitely more important to me is in the last two years we've had in excess of a week of greater then 200m days. Even in light conditions can count on averages of 6.8-7.4kts.
We looked at boats with negative phrf numbers but choose our boat because it was the right mix of performance,comfort,seaworthiness and ease of watch keeping. You seem like a real sailor and will cruise extensively. Therefore suggest, sure look at phrf, better yet look at sailing polars, but most important look at what days work you can expect from the boat and at what effort.
 
#9 ·
One other thing to consider is there are different PHRF ratings for different regions. Think of San Diego vs San Francisco, where average wind speed might be different by a factor of 3 on an average summer day. A great performing boat in one region may not be too competitive in another.

Even within a region there is different PHRF ratings for different race formats like random leg races where more reaching may be involved vs a windward-leeward race.

The thought process of a racer vs cruiser may be vastly different but some of the ideas are the same. How well would this boat do in the conditions I am going to use it in? The PHRF puts a quantitative number (although yacht club politics play a factor here as well) on the theoretical speed potential of each boat and in different configurations. Something I would consider in the purchase of a cruising boat.

This is where racers and cruisers diverge. The racer is looking for a boat with a "gift rating" or one that is easily sailed to it's rating. Then figuring what they can stirp out to make it faster. The cruiser is concerned about fridge space, head(s) layout and tankage.
 
#10 ·
I still like my somewhat tongue-in-cheek one-line reply in post #4.

As a reformed club racer, I did consider the PHRF numbers of the boats on my short list when I was shopping for a coastal cruiser in the 32-35 foot range five years ago. It was one (of many) factors, as i wanted a good performing boat that would do well in the generally light summer winds on Long Island Sound. I do disagree that the number alone without considering other factors (like overall length) tells you much about pointing ability. Do you really believe capta's Pearson 53 rated at 102 will outpoint a J24 rated at 174?
 
#13 ·
Do you really believe capta's Pearson 53 rated at 102 will outpoint a J24 rated at 174?
There's no way of knowing for sure without sailing the Pearson, but I would have to say it's likely.

Let me offer an example of one boat that I have sailed. The Morgan 38 is rated at 138. In another forum, one owner said: "So far, I have seen the boat point up to about 32 degree's off the wind." Another owner said: " I have inside track and I can get to about 29 or 30 degrees with a 150. Big caveat, only when the water is flat and the winds are about 7 knots true. If there is a sea running less than 35 degrees is very good." The complete discussion can be found here. Pointing ability and sail trim | Morgan 38 Sailboat Forum

I chartered Morgan 38s twice, and those comments are consistent with what I observed as well.

I have raced extensively against J 24s, and none of them could point close to that.

The Morgan 38 is not an anomaly. I race on several big boats (over 40' LOA), and virtually all of them can outpoint a J 24.

An important aspect of pointing ability is boat speed. As boat speed increases, pointing ability also increases. Bigger boats with a longer waterline length are capable of reaching higher boat speeds than smaller boats, and it isn't unusual for them to be able to outpoint them as well.
 
#11 ·
PHRF only matters when you're on a similar course with other boats and you want to handicap the results to equalize the race results.

For some when they are on the sailboat they are already where they want to be so getting somewhere else faster isn't a concern.

Others make everything a race.

And there are a LOT of us in between. No one wants to be the slowest boat on the water. And there will be times you do need to get somewhere (upwind, around a point, etc.)

But when comparing unfamiliar boats it does give an indication of how a boat performs speed-wise on a circuit course. This may have nothing to do with comfort or seakindliness or crew fatigue. It's only one measurement among dozens of measurements.
 
#12 · (Edited)
PHRF only matters when you're on a similar course with other boats and you want to handicap the results to equalize the race results...
Except when you're in a division with planing hull sportboats. Danged boats. My 141 Freedom just can't seem to beat a 171 Sonar :captain:

But I agree, PHRF is just a relative number compared to others traveling to the same destination. It would be much better to sail to your polars as someone else suggested.
 
#14 ·
Hey,

PHRF doesn't really anything when the wind is blowing 20+. When the wind is high enough to require a reef you already have more power then you need.

A boat with a better PHRF rating will allow you sail when another boat would be motoring.

My last boat had a PHRF of 150 or so. When I was weekend cruising I would frequently have to motorsail to get where I wanted to go in a reasonable amount of time. My current boat has a PHRF of 99 and I do a LOT more sailing than motoring. In August I spend 8 days aboard in 2 separate trips. Each day we sailed 20-30nm. I had 1.5 days of motoring, the rest was done under sail. I can sail about 45 degrees off the true wind and at good speed. My old boat could not do that, so we motorsailed a whole lot more.

Barry
 
#18 · (Edited)
I don't race but when I'm boat shopping the PHRF of a prospective boat is one of the first things I look at. I like to sail a well performing boat and there are a lot of surprisingly sluggish boats out there - ones you wouldn't suspect based on their "looks" and design numbers. Conversely there are also a lot of boats that perform better than one would expect.

The PHRF can give you a reasonable estimate of a boats overall performance relative to others which I find a valuable comparator when shopping. Also, as has been noted, if a higher rated boat blows past, one's first question should be "what am I doing wrong"?
 
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#19 ·
These seems to be some serious misunderstandings here. Standard PHRF is premised on a boat being in racing condition (all junk removed, good sails, fully crewed). But it is also assumed that the course is a Windward-Leeward oval.

So a boat could beat terribly, but go downwind like the devil and have a very low phrf rating (Ahla turbo sleds) or go upwind like nothing else but be terrible off the wind (ACC 90's). The PHRF number alone won't tell you much about how the boat sails on any particular point of sail, but a low rating does tell you it is on average fast around a defined race course. Note that ideally a PHRF is given out for a boats best conditions. So a planning hull asymmetric boat is rated in planning conditions. A boat that be reforms best in light air is rated in light breeze.

Some areas also give out a point to point number, which is a predictor of how a boat sails on a reach, but you would have to look at the specifics race returns to know for sure.
 
#21 ·
My point is that PHRF is supposed to be based on real performance by real boats around the course. As others have stated, I would look at different areas to learn about light/strong weather differences. It is common to see a range of up 30-40%, based upon equipment and region.

But a discussion of handicapping systems generally turns into an "anchor thread", since there are too many differences to count. There are many ways to estimate the performance of a boat you might buy--numerical ratios, and the opinions of owners and those in reviews--and PHRF is just one of those tools and should be used as such. No more, no less.

As for those that say speed doesn't matter, I doubt they are always reefed, so it does matter.
 
#22 ·
I want to thank each of you for your input.
For us, good speed is making any interisland passage in daylight, no matter the weather, but that often includes some time in the lee of at least one island, which buggers up the average.
I had no idea of PHRF ratings when I bought this boat (first heard of them here), as I haven't raced since the mid 60's, and frankly it never occurred to me to look for something like this.
Anyway, I thought I was buying a motorsailor. Surprise! It's nice to understand what people mean when they are looking for a boat with a good PHRF rating, which I now do thanks to you all.
TA
 
#23 ·
A PHRF rating of 102 is not terribly fast for a 52 foot boat, its not bad but really not quick either. A Hunter 40 or an old Tartan 41 are both quicker boats based on their ratings. That said I'm sure in a decent breeze your Pearson 52 will kick up her heels and leave many cruising boats in her wake.
 
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