Propane or Alcohol Stove?

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by RXBOT

If you have a leak with propane it will sink to the bilges and fill the lower level of your boat. If an ignition source occurs ( spark from bilge pump coming on ) your boat and anyone onboard will dissapear.

So are the fumes from alcohol, which is used with diesel, kerosene and alcohol stoves... as it is used for preheating diesel and kerosene, and is the fuel for alcohol stoves. Alcohol flames are nearly invisible as well.

A properly designed propane system has numerous safety devices, including flame-sensitive burners which will cutoff the fuel if the flame goes out, a propane sniffer and a solenoid which will close off the propane supply if the sniffer detects propane, and so on. Most bilge pump switches, since they are designed for use on both gasoline and diesel powered boats, are ignition proof switches.

Yes, propane explosions can happen....stove-related alcohol fires are fairly common. Most fires and explosions are due to user error...and nothing can prevent stupidity. In the race between man and God, where man makes something idiot-proof, and God improves the idiot... God is winning... He doesn't have to replace the idiots...he just upgrades them.

[RXBOT]

When touring the bacardi disstilery in NewProvidence Bahamas outside the warehouses where the rum was aging, there was no smoking allowed. A certain amount of the alcohol evaporated through the wooden barrels. They called it the angels share.

[flomaster]

I have a pressurized alcohol stove aboard. I like the system because it's simple. Not alot of parts there to fail, and none of them depend on any electricity to operate. My wife could really cook up a meal on that thing, too. I can't imagine that the wick-type would be any more complicated, although I wonder if they have a model with an oven in it. Denatured alcohol is pretty easy to get, too.

LPG is better to cook with, and it may be cheaper to buy. Also, alcohol is not as dry of a heat as compared with LPG. If I upgrade, I'll buy a diesel stove.

[Hartley18]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

So are the fumes from alcohol, which is used with diesel, kerosene and alcohol stoves... as it is used for preheating diesel and kerosene, and is the fuel for alcohol stoves. Alcohol flames are nearly invisible as well.

SD, alcohol is a liquid at room temperature and the design of marine-approved alcohol appliances include sufficient containment of spilled liquid to also contain any fumes from that liquid below the UEL (upper explosion limit) - also, alcohol is not usually piped around the boat, meaning that leaks do not normally find their way to bilges, hence numerous safety devices are not required.

Kerosene and diesel do not give off explosive fumes at room temperature, but they both leave oily soot stains which are difficult to clean.

Originally Posted by sailingdog

A properly designed propane system has numerous safety devices, including flame-sensitive burners which will cutoff the fuel if the flame goes out, a propane sniffer and a solenoid which will close off the propane supply if the sniffer detects propane, and so on. Most bilge pump switches, since they are designed for use on both gasoline and diesel powered boats, are ignition proof switches.

As a licensed hazardous area electrical inspector, I have yet to see an ignition-proof bilge pump switch. Most are Sealed (ie. water-tight), but are not specifically certified (and none are wired) to prevent a bang if the casing is accidentally cracked.

Originally Posted by sailingdog

Yes, propane explosions can happen....stove-related alcohol fires are fairly common. Most fires and explosions are due to user error...and nothing can prevent stupidity. In the race between man and God, where man makes something idiot-proof, and God improves the idiot... God is winning... He doesn't have to replace the idiots...he just upgrades them.

Basically, alcohol stove = boat can catch fire; propane stove = boat can explode. Which one you chose will depend upon what you're comfortable with.

Personally, I prefer the fire option, since at least that gives you a chance to use an extinguisher or abandon ship - but most people go with propane because it's easiest to use and take the (albeit low) risk...

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by Hartley18

SD, alcohol is a liquid at room temperature and the design of marine-approved alcohol appliances include sufficient containment of spilled liquid to also contain any fumes from that liquid below the UEL (upper explosion limit) - also, alcohol is not usually piped around the boat, meaning that leaks do not normally find their way to bilges, hence numerous safety devices are not required.

The biggest problem with alcohol stoves, both pressurized and non-pressurized, is generally user error. In the book Seaworthy, you can read all about the different horror stories for the different types of stoves.

As a licensed hazardous area electrical inspector, I have yet to see an ignition-proof bilge pump switch. Most are Sealed (ie. water-tight), but are not specifically certified (and none are wired) to prevent a bang if the casing is accidentally cracked.

So, you're arguing that a cracked bilge switch is a problem... poorly maintained and abused equipment is always a problem. If you're so clumsy that your bilge switches all have cracked casings... you really got to look at what the real problem is... it ain't the switches.

Basically, alcohol stove = boat can catch fire; propane stove = boat can explode. Which one you chose will depend upon what you're comfortable with.

A properly maintained propane system is safer than a properly maintained alcohol stove IMHO, since it affords less chance for user error. Also, since it cooks far faster, it is going to be in use a smaller percentage of the time. Finally, anyone who sails a boat and doesn't shut the valves on their propane tanks off manually when not actually using the propane is just asking for trouble.

Personally, I prefer the fire option, since at least that gives you a chance to use an extinguisher or abandon ship - but most people go with propane because it's easiest to use and take the (albeit low) risk...

Neither fire or explosion is a good thing on a boat. Generally, alcohol-based fires get out of control far faster than most people realize, since the flames are initially nearly invisible and the fuel is also very hard to detect—so the fires can get fairly well established before being noticed.

[Hartley18]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

So, you're arguing that a cracked bilge switch is a problem... poorly maintained and abused equipment is always a problem. If you're so clumsy that your bilge switches all have cracked casings... you really got to look at what the real problem is... it ain't the switches.

SD, you stated in Post #41 that "most bilge pump switches, since they are designed for use on both gasoline and diesel powered boats, are ignition proof switches".

I was merely challenging a statement of yours that is complete and total bunkum... and I feel quite honoured to be able to do so!

[RealityCheck]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue

When I say a POT of water Joe, I mean a 4-6 qt pot, enough for lobster or pasta - not a saucepan for making French Press coffee.

With my experience, it takes 5 minutes for a gallon of water to boil using LPG - at least 20-30 minutes with a "Pressurized" alcohol cooktop, what my last boat had. Alcohol stoves with a wick will take much longer.

Who wants to have a heating source steam up the galley for over an hour during a hot summer day? Remember to include cooking times too.

I'll totally agree with this one and you can add an hour for non pressurized cook tops
PLUS something that I didn't see mentioned... life time of the Alcohol... if you keep it some time in a container you "think" is well sealed but none are... you end up with a mix of alcohol and water... now try and keep that lit

[nebo]

I use an ancient coleman 2 burner and the 1# propane can. All cans are stored above deck in a PVC tube on the stearn. I just pop off the one I've been using and take it outside. No muss, no fuss, and I sleep well at night.

nebo

[Sailormann]

I used Origo for a long time, then ended up with propane. There is no comparison. Faster, easier and much better control. Get a sniffer.

[JimsCAL]

This topic (propane versus alcohol) has been the subject of a surprising large number of threads in the last few months with some VERY stong opinions on each side! IMHO, both are good choices for marine stove fuel, but each has its advantages and disadvantages which have been (mostly) outlined pretty well above by their proponents. My thoughts:

1. If your boat is on the smaller size and currently has a pressurized alcohol stove, I would recommend switching to an Origo. The non-pressurized Origo is much more convenient to use, cooks faster, and is much less likely to experience a fire (if you follow the filling instructions). If you tally up the cost to switch to propane, it probably won't make sense unless you do a lot of cruising. But that's not likely in a small boat. And finding space for a proper propane locker on a small boat can be impossible.

2. If your boat currently has propane, I can't see why you would switch. Just make sure the system is properly installed and maintained. Propane is definitely very convenient and has excellent performance.

3. The comments by the propane proponents about the huge difference in cooking time compared to alcohol are not correct. The rated output (in BTU/hr) of an Origo burner and the typical propane burner are about the same. In a related tread a month or so ago JeffH reports on a test he ran during a raftup. The same pot with the same amount of water from the same jug was timed to boiling on his Origo and several propane stoves. The Origo's time was very close to the average of the propane stoves - faster than some, slower than others. Not a scientific test, but confirms the Mfr's ratings.

Bottom line is I currently have an Origo 3000 which replaced a Kenyon pressurized stove. My wife is delighted with the upgrade. If my next boat has propane, I will be perfectly happy. But I will make sure the installation is done correctly and will maintain it carefully.