Motoring to sailing ratio vs performance....... - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 08-29-2006
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,604
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
I think realistically only those purists (with no schedule - like the Pardeys) sail ALL the time. We recently spent 56 days cruising the BC West Coast, Georgia Strait, Jervis Inlet and Desolation sound. Many of these areas are typically wind vacuums in the summer. In 41 days of travelling we racked up 120 hrs on the engine. A few of those hours involved idling looking for decent anchorages, moorings etc. Of the 1056 NM we covered between the end of June and late August we probably motored 600 due primarily to lack of wind. We averaged 25-30 miles/day with two 90 and one 110 NM days out to and back from the West Coast. We enjoyed many 4-6 hour spinnaker runs, but suffered just as many calm days motoring. Our sail/motor threshold was a VMG of less than 2 knots (depending on the distance remaining) The first mate is not into night sailing. Period. So the longer days necessarily included motoring. The 17 hours we put into the 110 mile day was half motoring in calm/fog and the last half blasting downwind in 20 - 25 knots.
We never motor downwind in over 10 knots of breeze, and will most often sail upwind if the breeze is over 6-8 knots unless long distances are involved.
The last two days of our trip, reluctant to head home, we beat into a SE wind that varied from 5 - 20 - 5 knots over the two days, against a knot and a half of tide. It took us 40 miles sailing to cover 28 miles distance one day, but it was sunny, windy and thoroughly enjoyable. Did I mention no one really wanted to get home?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 08-29-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
To sail, or not to sail ?

Jeff, this is a fascinating thread. You've really touched on a fundamental of the sailing experience. There are quite a few dynamics involved. Forgive me for spilling from the gut here instead of focusing on a particular quote or two of yours, particulary since you started with so much for us to quote anyway . So rather then address you specifically, I will spew a bit along the lines of: "To sail or not to sail, that is the question".

We're on our third boat, all of them coastal cruisers (Pearson27, Ericson32, 34). We chose them on factors which most certainly included our practical sailing waters on the Chesapeake. Even if we'd had much more money to spend we would have ended up in the same performance/comfort range. To sail or not to sail ? Well that depends on the reason why we are away from the dock today and how much sailing we've done lately.

Sometimes we just need to go sailing becasue we need a fix. We go out for a few hours and sail whatever direction feels good with the wind and then work our way back. That means if there isn't enough wind for the amount of chop, we'll be uncomfortable, drop sail, and head for shore or maybe a day hook. Incidentally that is now less likely at least in our area since the power boat wakes are in smaller numbers as the fuel prices increase. If we had a boat with less performance that was harder to get going, we'd be giving up sooner too or not even go out to begin with regardless of the steadier footing. We wouldn't just be motoring around out there. I knew someone with an Island Packet who used to joke about not bothering with sailing until it was blowing hard. Of course on the Chesapeake there's plenty of light air, hence our choice for a lighter air boat.

Other times we've got a destination, whether on the way to or from. In those cases we're always disappointed if we don't get at least a few hours of good sailing fix along the way each day. Heck, one July weekend a few years ago we motored all the way to destination and back, racking up 11.5 hours on motor. We actually found a smooth spot on a river with a touch of a breeze and sailed for a whopping 20 minutes. That was so disappointing. We did find a good new gunkhole so it was not all in vain, but if the wind forecast hadn't been so overstated we wouldn't have planned to go that far in the first place.

When there is a destination, the decision to sail or not to sail at a particular moment is full of uncertainty and a very judgemental one when the winds are up. With low winds it's a no brainer. Once we've gotten a few hours of sailing in each day, our threshold for dropping sail is lowered. Then as we near the other end, we're more prone to sailing the rest of the way in. If we threw in the parameter of having less performance, the sailing time would suffer. After ten years exploring the Chesapeake, the pressure to venture further to new unexplored places increases, so I expect that eventually our motoring time will increase too. I do know at one extreme that if it's blowin' like stink, we'll be sailing unless we've got a tight channel or too much channel traffic and the wind is on the nose.

Your story indicated that your friend could have sailed in the plentiful winds this past weekend and had about the same transit time result. If I had been your friend in the other boat, I would have gotten the sails out for such a voyage at least when they became strong. While we did not have children, we've had experience with children of all ages on our boat sometimes for several hours at a time (BTW- NEVER let a two year old near a winch handle, much less get hold of one ). I can see how for people sailing with children on a regular basis it would sometimes be a downward pressure on the sailing decision, depending on the current family dynamics. One of our slipmates is a devoted sailor who can be heard in the slip laying the ground rules for his teenagers and their friends about even the presence of cell phones or a walkman before they head out. Those kids have been busted for text messaging too much. He has made them leave electronics ashore. It sounds like a challenge and he's not about to give in. He says what's the point of going sailing if you're going to be looking at and poking at your cell phone keyboard for hours ?

Some adult guests are a challenge for whom I must tailor the experience also. If they don't like the boat heeled much, then I just won't consider taking them far or long when better winds are a possibility. If people aren't up for the whole experience then the planned voyage is going to be curtailed. Perhaps that could be considered controlling, but it is after all a SAILboat.
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...

Last edited by captnnero; 08-29-2006 at 05:23 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 08-29-2006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 2,011
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 9
PalmettoSailor will become famous soon enough
This whole site is a great resource for newbies like me and this tread is a really good topic for discussion.

My wife and I are in our first season as sailors and as boat owners ('88 O'day 322). We pretty much try to sail as much as we can but use the motor when we have too which is a fair bit. I suspect at this point my ratio is close to 50/50 distance wise at least, but from a time perspective, we spent a lot more time this summer broasting in the sun while trying to figure out how to make the boat go, sometimes making little headway in the afore mentioned light air days, than we did motoring. That said, when it got too hot we weren't too proud to resort to the "iron genny".

Most of this summer, we focused on getting comfortable getting the boat from the marina to the bay and back, learning how to make the thing go, building on the experience of our ASA101 class. During this time, I watched a lot of boats pass us under sail alone, and a lot more motoring, as we learned how this sailing thing worked. Interestingly, we have a much easier time making the boat go upwind than making it go downwind.

Anyway, we are learning a lot and having fun, but I have to say the most fun We've had so far was a couple of weeks back, when with good wind, we caught up to, and passed another similar sized Hunter under sail, then stayed ahead of him through several tacks. When we realized the guy was more or less following in our wake, my wife and I laughed wondering what the guy on the other boat would think if he knew the crew of the boat that overtook him were a couple of neophytes. It almost made up for the sting of all those boats that passed us this summer. We have an instructor lined up for later this month to get some training on our boat, so look out on the Bay!!!

We're really looking forward to learning to get the most performance possible out of our wing keeled, baggy sailed ole girl, getting a few maintenence chores taken care of over the winter and really starting to explore the Chesepeake next year and hopefully holding our own agaist other boats on the Bay!

Last edited by PalmettoSailor; 08-29-2006 at 07:19 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 08-29-2006
wrevans's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lopez Island, WA
Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
wrevans is on a distinguished road
Well I just can’t resist jumping in on this topic. My boat, a 22 ft Bluenose sloop, is an older universal rule type boat that wouldn’t make Jeff’s list of performance boats in this day and age. But I sail it three or four days a week in the San Juan Islands without an engine. What surprises me is that I can catch almost any cruising boat that has decided to set sail and there aren’t many. Even though my boat was considered a race boat in its day I am only 16 feet on the waterline. So I shouldn’t be able to catch boat 10 to 15 feet or longer than me. By definition I sail on and off my mooring and I anchor under sail and although I am not on a specific time frame, if I get caught out in light wind I get to row home. And rowing has been a great teacher. With every stroke I think about ways to get better light air performance out of my boat. This is what I think the engine takes away from sailing. I really think that the auxiliary engine has become necessary for most modern cruising sailboats. So for me it is less about speed than it is about being able to sail when I want in the widest of wind conditions. So I guess I lean in a similar direction to Jeff on performance. Now if I could only get over my gosh darn love of old skinny boats with large overhangs.

Fun Topic Jeff.

Bill
Lopez Island
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 08-31-2006
Dewey Benson's Avatar
old cranky salt
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 342
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
Dewey Benson is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrevans
Well I just can’t resist jumping in on this topic. My boat, a 22 ft Bluenose sloop, is an older universal rule type boat that wouldn’t make Jeff’s list of performance boats in this day and age.
Bill
Lopez Island
Ah but her short waterline dissapears at 18 degrees of heel! You probably have an effective waterline of 20-21 feet. This was designed by G. William McVay, and her "plank on edge" design is the speedy stuff of legend. Worst thing you can do with this vessel is under power with a quartering to dead stern seaway. Lots of reversing helm stuff. Very physical.
Nice yacht!

Dewey
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 08-31-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
good old boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrevans
... What surprises me is that I can catch almost any cruising boat that has decided to set sail and there aren’t many. Even though my boat was considered a race boat in its day I am only 16 feet on the waterline. So I shouldn’t be able to catch boat 10 to 15 feet or longer than me. ...
Bill, if you haven't seen it yet, check out the latest issue of Good Old Boat. I think there's an article about a very early plastic boat (mid-1950's) that recently smoked some 37 foot plus Beneteau and other modern boats in a race in the Caribbean. I left it on my boat so I'll get more info when I'm there next. This boat was about a 40 footer with very long overhangs. Nice work, eh ?
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 08-31-2006
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by captnnero
Bill, if you haven't seen it yet, check out the latest issue of Good Old Boat. I think there's an article about a very early plastic boat (mid-1950's) that recently smoked some 37 foot plus Beneteau and other modern boats in a race in the Caribbean. I left it on my boat so I'll get more info when I'm there next. This boat was about a 40 footer with very long overhangs. Nice work, eh ?
I love when this happens..
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What would you buy for $100,000? swo104 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 130 08-30-2013 11:51 AM
Windward performance deseely General Discussion (sailing related) 21 04-01-2012 02:42 PM
buying first boat jerrycooper14 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 21 04-23-2002 02:15 PM
PHRF? Bro Learning to Sail 2 01-12-2002 03:18 AM
ISAF Eligibility Requirements paulk Racing 4 02-05-2001 11:25 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:13 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.