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  #21  
Old 09-14-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
...
I recently researched the market for similar available models and was delighted to find the asking prices have increased by 20 - 30% from 2 years ago. A buyer would need to negotiate a price 40 to 50% below list to reach what we paid. That's a comforting thought, in respect to what most consider to be a depreciating asset.
TrueBlue, I noticed most of the current Nauticat 33's are listed overseas where the Euro/Dollar exchange rate can sometimes cause a very real "regional" effect. I don't know your particular circumstance but I'm just warning others in case they start comparing US to overseas boat pricing.
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Last edited by captnnero; 09-14-2006 at 06:00 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-14-2006
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captnnero-
Bear in mind that boats listed for sale in the EU are also reflecting the significant VAT surcharge on them. And a "cheaper" boat from the US, would have to pay the VAT tax once it had overstayed the guest times in the EU. (As opposed to our varying sales and use and personal property taxes in the US.)
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  #23  
Old 09-14-2006
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EU vs US:

In the case of the Nauticats. The prices ARE skewed by the European market.

A relativly rare creature due to the sophisticated nature of the product and the type of owner that pursues it. The seekers of such craft will travel to locate and purchase them where ever they may be.

Note the US prices and you shall see the diference in US And EU is negligible. Then there are cases of what I call Broker Bloat. A rightly proud owner of a vessel bludgens a broker into listing it at an astronomical price unrelated to the market, or a broker tells the lister what he wants to hear to obtain the listing. There was a Nauticat 52 in the Pac Northwest, listed wayyy above the most bloated EU price as recently as last year (might still be there).

Dewey
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captnnero
TrueBlue, I noticed most of the current Nauticat 33's are listed overseas where the Euro/Dollar exchange rate can sometimes cause a very real "regional" effect. I don't know your particular circumstance but I'm just warning others in case they start comparing US to overseas boat pricing.
Guess I have to justify my claims captn. Of course this is all subjective and these boats are very unique with some very obsessive owners.

I was comparing my purchase only to US listed NC33s, although you are correct in that buyers from overseas frequently travel to this country to purchase these boats, taking avantage of the "lower" prices.

Four boats of my vintage are listed in Europe between 150k to 203k US$. Keep in mind that these listed boats are only 33 feet and 20 or more years old. However, we inspected a new 33 at a recent boat show that listed for a bargain "show price" of 250k (plus all those "hidden costs" like shipping, taxes, rigging, ect.), without any of the add-ons on our boat such as AP, GPS, VHF, A/C, Espar, Radar, chart plotters, etc. We've seen equipped new ones sell for over $325k.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ck&searchtype=

My boat is a 1986 model with the modified fin-keel and tall rig options, is in very good condition - stored inside each winter by the previous owner and used lightly. Only 1,600 hrs on the Lehman 90hp diesel. I smile when recalling what we paid 2 years ago.

http://www.sailnet.com/photogallery/...file=27&size=1

Just a brief search of US boats in similar, or worse condition results in the following:

A 1985 in Seattle for just under 200k -
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ck&searchtype=

Another '85 in Georgia for 105k -
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ck&searchtype=


I did find two in MD & FL listed for less which are the shoal draft, short rig models. These models sail like dogs and appear to have other issues. They are listed for less for this reason. I have found that the good ones go very quickly - including two which sold within a few weeks in my waters earlier this year for well over 100k.

Sorry if I digressed too much from the focus of this thread.
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Last edited by TrueBlue; 09-15-2006 at 08:30 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2006
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True,

I don't believe you have digressed at all. The fluidity of the various segments of the boat market directly address the posters depreciation question.

Part of the problem in assessing boat values lies in the fact that there is not a huge base of boat sales in a particular model or type of vessel in most cases. With cars there are many thousands sold each year, and average selling prices are easy to determine.

Catalina 30's are one of the easy ones to price because of the volume sold. Many boat models have production runs of less than 50 (not in a year, an entire run!). One of these may not sell used in a two or three year period.

Other vessels are specialty craft and appeal to only a limited segment of the market. That may in some cases drive the price up, and in others drive it down.

General economy trends highly affect current prices as a "Yacht" is disposable income, a luxury item. No one NEEDS a yacht. This is opposed to lets say, a commercial fishing craft where the owners need the vessel to earn a living.

Robust economys drive prices up, poor down, and the stratified economy that we are experiencing now raises certain segments and lowers others.
Interesting stuff!

Dewey
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  #26  
Old 09-15-2006
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digression is good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Benson
True,

I don't believe you have digressed at all. The fluidity of the various segments of the boat market directly address the posters depreciation question.

Part of the problem in assessing boat values lies in the fact that there is not a huge base of boat sales in a particular model or type of vessel in most cases. ...
I stayed mostly out of this thread early on because of the huge uncertainties involved. Dewey's hit the nail on the head here several times. He's poured a bunch of free variables into the discussion. As time rolls over a vessel the uncertainties in value increase.

Most new boats experience about 20% depreciation within the first couple of years. Then the average goes to about 6% per year.

There is not a futures market for used boat trading. If you buy a boat base most of your decision on how much enjoyment you think that you can extract from it. While you use it smother it with TLC to protect it's safety and value. Then when you no longer use it or enjoy it, cash out at what the market will bear. Once your boat asset starts sitting around unused, it's value tends to whither unless you continue to smother it with TLC.
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  #27  
Old 09-15-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captnnero

There is not a futures market for used boat trading.
Thank god! Boats listed with pork bellies! For each fortune made 100 fortunes lost.

The true value of a boat is what you get out of it. When I was young and didn't have a lot of cash, going out to that boat was my lifeline. The intangble "quality of life". It made me feel a sense of adventure, purpose, self reliance.

It made me feel good.

Dewey
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  #28  
Old 09-15-2006
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Yeap, Dewey really hit the nail on the head. There aren’t many transactions to go by to get a meaningful number to guide a new buyer to negotiate. I am not ready to buy yet, but when I am ready a year so from now. I guess I just have to lowball it, and see. Thanks for contributing.

Quote:
Most new boats experience about 20% depreciation within the first couple of years. Then the average goes to about 6% per year.
I certainly will this as a start.

For those who have gone through or witnessed the selling and purchasing a sailboat, please share with us what was the percentage of the purchase to the asking price. Again this must vary a lot. But what the heck, let’s hear some numbers.
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2006
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TrueBlue, I'm afraid I'm lost. The "unmentioned" hidden costs of a new purchase, like rigging and all...amount to what? And, are we taking into account a set of new sails versus, what, eight or ten grand (?) to replace the ones on the average 33' 1985 boat?

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just that cost accounting can be a very subtle and outright deceptive path to walk.

I haven't been taking strict notes but have seen that one some boats in a certain range, over the last five years the used boat prices have ZOOMED a good 30-40%. Not, as best I can see, from any other reason aside from the fact that new boats still cost more, and the older boats from the early 80's or late 70's have either been sucked off the market, smashed in storms, or damaged by neglect--leaving the market for a "good old boat" that much thinner and that much higher in price.

One good storm season and what, four or five thousand boats get sucked out of the market? One thousand? That's still a HUGE chunk of market share, I think we're seeing that now. And the folks that lose used ones--aren't replacing them with new ones. They're competing in the used market again, I think.
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Old 09-15-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
TrueBlue, I'm afraid I'm lost. The "unmentioned" hidden costs of a new purchase, like rigging and all...amount to what? And, are we taking into account a set of new sails versus, what, eight or ten grand (?) to replace the ones on the average 33' 1985 boat?
The costs I was referring to in that context were specific to buying a new Nauticat from a dealer, not a 1985. The US dealer at a boat show quoted us a "base" price for the boat, in this case about 250k for a new 331. The price of course included the sails, standing and running rigging, but since each boat is custom built in Finland per order and shipped overseas, additional costs include rigging once received by the dealer.
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