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  #81  
Old 09-28-2006
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Hi. I am a professional metal worker (Qualified as a blacksmith, worked as a boilermaker and eventually did a secondary degree in fine art metal (gold and silver smithing). I have also worked in casting metals and in destruct testing and failure analysis.)
I have absolutely no dog in this fight, in fact, I am in another country.

Now havign said all that...the stuff that was being said regarding jet fuel not being able to melt steel, and steel melting is what caused the towers to fall is utter tripe.

Firstly, it is not about jet fuel burning hot enough to melt steel. It does not need to happen. What you have are two huge chimneys that draw amazing amounts of air at huge volocities once there is a fire that causes airflow to begin drawing. In this case the central elevator shafts acted as a nearly perfect flue. Like using bellows on charcoal in order to jump from 300degrees C to 1200 degrees C...the key is airflow. And the thing is that at that point, it was not the jet fuel that was burning, that was just an initial source of ignition, on its own, it would not deliver a long lasting thermal source. My guess is that it was all burnt away within 5 minutes at the outside...but by then it had coated just about everything and caused a huge area of carpets, furnishings, noise insulation and everything else including plaster wall panels to ignite and commence releasing their thermal potential. You were no longer burning jet fuel, that was just your lighter fluid, now the real barbeque grill could do its work...and it had 1100 feet of draw.
That will melt steel handily.
I have built 8th century bloomeries that smelt iron using homemade charcoal and some twigs...it is all about the airflow.

Now lets talk about the other really important misunderstanding displayed in your post. The steel that actually brought about the collapse did not need to come anywhere near to melting tempreture. The steel used to hold the floors in that building was tempered trusses. This means a fairly lightweight structure that delivers its strenght by means of its shape and by the fact that all individual components are heat treated to attain maximum strength (but shy of the point at which they become too brittle). This is a bit of atricky process to get right when dealing with huge trusses. The facilites for making them are pretty impressive.
But here's the downside....All it takes is enough heat to take the temper out of the steel, or enough to just warp the truss so that its shape is no longer aligned to precisely deal with the weight it is supporting...and it begins to fail.

It takes less then 500 degrees C to take the temper off much better steel then was used in the trusses and "normalise" it...except that normalising is what happens if you just let it col normally under no strees....In this case, it had 100's of tons of weight pressing down on it.

Now I want you to try a little experiment. Take a little strip of 18ga mild steel and flex it between your hands a few times. really give it a good fold and then back out. Now touch the fold point...Hot isn't it?

Now imagine steel that has been de-tempered and weakened by heat, under many hundreds of tons of load, in an oven environment (unable to shed heat)...going taffy and drawing out as it gives. Basically, the steel failing is what contributed the last bit of heat needed to generate the melted look of many peices.


So your conspiracy theories may be valid or about as much use as a hat made of blue cheese...You are welcome to them regardless...but the beliefs you espoused about steel were just plain silly.


You claim that you enjoy doing intensive research, so I do not feel too bad about providing the 2am ssuper basic version of what I was saying.I hope it inspores you to do some research further afield then you seem to have looked to date.


Sasha
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  #82  
Old 09-28-2006
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Sasha, the "mysteries" of the WTC collapse were all pretty much explained in the multiple engineering reports and reconstructions that happened afterward. Among them, one key problem was and is that in the US steel beam construction is fireproofed by spraying cement (asbestos-cement at that time, IIRC) over the steelwork. And that works as a means of slowing fire damage very well. BUT that cement coating shattered and cracked off from the extreme impact of the jetliner--something it was never designed to accomodate.

That's all water under the bridge, and not only has it been indepently confirmed but new building construction codes have already been proposed that will take this into account and mandate the use of different materials and methods, so they don't fail under impact damage.

Running changes like that are among the reasons why rebuilding the WTC has been so slow to happen. The politicians argue, delay, and muddle, and then when they're done...the engineers have to play catchup all over again. There have been several rounds of substantial engineering and security redesigns over issues like this.

All the conspiracy theorists should instead by shouting and rejoicing in the streets, that an unprecedented and unexpected failure mode basically allowed those buildings to SAFELY IMPLODE instead of falling sideways and taking out 1/4 mile swaths through the Wall Street district and City Hall.

Yes, I said SAFELY implode, because if the ragheads had been good enough to knock 'em over sideways from the base, there could have been 100,000 deaths instead of 3,000, and a firestorm of epic proportion. (45-50,000 in the towers later on during a normal business day, that many again in the surrounding buildings they could have fallen on.) We got hurt--but we got away lightly compared to what professionals could have done.
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  #83  
Old 09-28-2006
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Quite.

Oh yeah...because I can't sleep and left out one part of the post I was answering.

Traces of thermite and how it got there.....

Aluminium and iron oxide equals....anybody? Anybody at all? Say it loud now, most of us played with making it as kids...THERMITE.

Yep, your magical miracle trace element.

...And not just for burning through your parents garage roller door either.

You can refine it, you can do funky things that make it burn hotter or more directionally depending on what medium you adhere it to...but at the end of the day thermite is iron rust and aluminium.

oxidising iron like the window frames of the bulding for instance.....andaluminium like...of, I don't know....say a goodly percentage of 40+ tons of commercial aircraft....


As further reading, you may want to check out the original building specs and plans. I am sure they had to include the proposed controlled demolition specs (you do not get permission to build sky-scrapers in built up areas without explaining how you would make them go away after their usefull lifespan). I think you will find that the vertical pancaking is a sort of design feature of those towers....especially as the alternative is, as pointed out by the previous poster, taking out huge swaiths of city.



Goodnight.


Sasha
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  #84  
Old 09-28-2006
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Passports

Kenya-
Thanks for bringing up the original post.

I think pass ports are a good thing.
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  #85  
Old 06-14-2007
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Passport revelation

Psst, hate to kill all this important discussion re passport, but since I am a victim of Massachusetts I feel qualified to actually state why all this 'new' passport malarky even exist. $MONEY$. Like homeland security and 'our' Mass. Water Resource Authority,[don't drink the water or eat the fish?] its all guff, all about money for what we can compare to the politburo, 2007. Mao said "We will conquor you from within". Now with 12-30 million illeagal aliens on board and demanding 'rights' you have to truthfull and admit homeland security, new passport regs are just that. Looks like Mao is vindicated. While people focus on the sky [global warming and gay rights] the country has been...lost. Whew, that is depressing. Makes you want to just sail away from it all!
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Last edited by Joesaila; 06-14-2007 at 07:32 AM.
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  #86  
Old 06-14-2007
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It might be interesting for all of you 9/11 debaters to look at the video titled "Loose Change, 2nd Edition", which you can see here.
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  #87  
Old 06-14-2007
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Maybe I should get dual citizenship as a Canuk in order to postion myself for the big day! . . . eh?
Gee ... I'm not sure, but I'd venture to say that you'd be much happier in the US... we don't like (hand)guns, have high taxes, a lot of socialist policies, and care less about individual "rights" than we do about the common good...
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  #88  
Old 06-14-2007
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I dunno; the weather does always look pleasent up there whenever I watch the news. It miraculous how the weather (being reported) seems to majically stop right at the border!! Gee! How DO you guys DO it!
Well when I was talking to God last night (he hangs out in Canada a lot these days) he indicated that he is not too fond of the Republicans anymore... (If you check your historical weather records, I think you'll find an amusing correlation between a Republican White House and weather disturbances... and please note that I said it was AMUSING and nothing else)
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  #89  
Old 06-14-2007
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Sailormann, I think your God must be confused, or messing with your head. Last time someone creamed a couple million DEMOCRATS in the Democratic city of New Orleans in the Democratic state of Louisiana...A democratic mayor and governor took a lot of flack for screwing up, while that Republican in the White House got to look concerned and play soldier for the day. He had a real good time, but them dem's got smashed.
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Old 06-14-2007
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HS - I agree that he got the targets wrong (but we all make mistakes sometimes - even God) but it did happen while the White House was under Republican lockdown...errr, I meant to say occupied by a Republican President
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