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New Mainsail - Sail materials

6K views 12 replies 8 participants last post by  jblumhorst 
#1 ·
It's time to purchase a new mainsail for our Cat 27 TR. We spend our time cruising around the Chesapeake during the weekends with the kids and weeknight PHRF racing. Trying to understand the tradeoffs of all the various materials and looking for suggestions.

Current understanding is as follows:

Higher-quality dacron sails are close in cost and performance to entry laminates. Dacron will stretch more quickly than the laminates but laminates are less robust to UV or other environmental

Some laminates may be engineered to be longer life and more robust to environment

Are laminate sails worth the extra cost? Are there laminates that provide a balance between lifetime and performance?
Any experience with specific sailmakers and materials?

Josh
 
#2 ·
Hey,

I'm not a sailmaker but I have bought a few sails. IMHO you are best off with a high quality dacron sail. The most important sail on your boat is the headsail, the main is secondary. If you aren't seriously racing, dacron will provide the best bang for the buck for you. You should contact your local well regarded sail loft and speak to the sailmaker to get his opinion.

In my area I have dealt with three lofts and I have bought sails from two of them. I have found the prices are higher than mail order but the service has been more than worth it. A good local guy will come to your boat, measure for the sail, build the sail, come back to your boat to deliver the sail, take the old sail off and put the new sail on, hoist the sail and make sure it fits properly. If you race, the sailmaker will probably go out with you to make sure the sail works as designed.

Lastly, it's quite common to have a 10 year old Dacron sail still work well. I don't believe a laminate sail will last anywhere near that long.

Barry
 
#5 ·
For general purposes (casual racing and cruising), I think good quality dacron sails are your best choice. The main difference between laminates and dacron, in terms of sailing performance, is that laminates don't stretch as much as dacron, and laminates are generally a little lighter than dacron. But, you can compensate for the stretchiness of dacron by trimming the sails more agressively. In a gust, when the sailcloth stretches, winch in the jibsheet a little, to keep the sail flat. When the gust eases, ease out the jibsheet an inch or two. Moreover, stretchiness of sailcloth is an issue on a 27' boat, but it isn't as big an issue as it is on a big boat. Overall, big sails stretch more than small sails.

Good quality dacron maintains it's shape over the long term much better than cheap dacron. I had some good old North dacron sails that were still race competitive after 23 years. Cheap sails would have become baggy many years sooner.
 
#6 ·
" The most important sail on your boat is the headsail, the main is secondary."
I have always prioritized the mainsail. I have only ever been a casual (beer can) racer in my own boat but I have found it easier to manage a to work up better speed and pointing with a tired head sail and a fresh main than the other way around.
What am I missing Barry? I am always glad to learn something...
Also down with Dacron... I had a suit of "Vectran" dacron sails from Hood. It was said that the Vectran fibers had a similar shape holding benefit to laminates but others felt that there were no enough vectran threads for that to work. I did not have the boat long enough to find out if they held shape better.
 
#8 ·
Masthead vs Fractional Rig

Hey,

The Catalina 27 is a Masthead Rig. This means that the headsail (especially a genoa) is the bigger sail and provides most of the 'drive' when sailing. The Mainsail is smaller and less important for sailing performance.

If the boat were a fractional rig, where the headsail is smaller (and the main larger, relatively), the mainsail would be more important.

Barry
 
#7 ·
Follow up question:

With respect to Dacron, is there a good metric for comparing quality? There seems to be many variations provided by each loft even though there are only five or so sailcloth companies.

Adding further to the confusion is that the cloths can be finished differently such as more resin, baked longer, etc.

Obviously the quality of Dacron is a major price driver so how does one compare between lofts?

Josh
 
#11 · (Edited)
Follow up question:

With respect to Dacron, is there a good metric for comparing quality? There seems to be many variations provided by each loft even though there are only five or so sailcloth companies.

Adding further to the confusion is that the cloths can be finished differently such as more resin, baked longer, etc.

Obviously the quality of Dacron is a major price driver so how does one compare between lofts?

Josh
As you might expect, in general, you get "better" sails when you pay for "better" sailcloth (with all other things being equal, of course) .

At each level of "good/better/best", there are several cloth manufacturers competing for your business. The cloth manufacturers are competing for the business of the large lofts too. Larger lofts tend to buy large volumes of cloth from the manufacturer who gives them the best price. But my main point here is this: While there are small variations between the different cloths made by different manufacturers at each level, all manufacturers offer very similar very similar cruising cloths ranging from value-oriented (entry level) to high performance levels.

To summarize: for most cruisers and performance cruisers, there are more similarities between the manufacturers' cloths than difference.

A sail maker who knows all about the technical aspects of each sailcloth is your best source of advice about which cloth will meet your requirements. Each cloth has its pros and cons and profile of stretch/performance, shape-life, service lift, ease of use, abrasion resistance, UV resistance, flogging resistance, etc.

As for longevity, the Woven cloths will almost always outlast the laminated cloths, although the service life of laminates is much improved over the past 15 years.

Below are some examples of cloth, arranged roughly in order increasing price and shape-stabilty. To give you a little perspective: a coastal passage making mainsail for a 43' boat with 2 reefs and "2full+2partial battens" in the cloths listed below would cost between $2700 and $9000 (very roughly). That's a huge price difference between entry level cloth and high end cloths.

Cross Cut Woven Dacrons: For Cruising
  • Basic Cruising Dacron (Contender Supercruise, Challenge Performance Cruise)​
  • Super Durable Charter Dacrons (Challenge High Mass, Contender Charter Cruise, both of which are optimized for longest possible service life rather than lowest stretch.)​
  • Mid range cross cut dacron (Dimension-Polyant Cruise MT or CBreeze or Challenge High Modulus in high and low aspect styles)​
  • High end cross cut dacron (Challenge Marblehead in high and low aspect styles​

Radial Cut Woven Dacrons and Cruising Laminates: for Performance Cruising
  • Challenge Warp Drive (Warp Oriented Woven Dacron)​
  • Contender CDX Cruising Laminate (polyester scrim with taffeta skins) & Dimension Polyant DCX Cruising Laminate (polyester scrim with taffeta skins)
  • Contender Hybrid Radial Woven Dacron (Warp Oriented Dacron with Dyneema suitable for small to large yachts)​
  • Dimension Polyant HydraNet Radial Woven Dacron (Warp Oriented Dacron with a lot of Dyneema, suitable for small to large yachts)​
  • Dimension Polyant Laminate: Carbon Sport with Lite Skin, (Carbon and Polyester scrim, with a cool looking gray skin on both sides, suitable for yachts up to 45' loa)​
  • Dimension Polyant Laminate: GPL with lite skin, (Carbon scrim, with a cool looking gray skin on both sides, suitable for yachts form 20-60' LOA)​

Hope this helps folks gain a little perspective on the multitude of cruising and performance cruising sailcloths available.

Judy B
 
#9 ·
Thanks Barry for the clarification. I get what you're saying.

Probably too fine a point but while I certainly agree that drive is helped by good shape (flow) in a headsail, particularly with a masthead rig designed to exploit such drive (I have bought sails for three such rigs) I still don't think it is as important as the improved ability to control shape/twist in a fresh main regardless of its size porportinate to a headsail.

Beyond any argument about performance, considering the cost of new sails it can be much more practical to prioritize with a new mainsail as I have found that it can be a lot easier on the pocketbook to find useful and effective used head sails of all sorts that don't need costly adjustment as I build up a good suit of sails.

Chris
 
#10 · (Edited)
A common misconception: the jib/genoa is 'the main driver' of a boat.
Without a well shaped and trimmed MAINSAIL the jib will not be operating in the 'proper upwash' of air that is being forced/stagnated 'forward' on the weather side of the mainsail and is being diverted all the way forward and then crosses the luff of the jib to the lee side .... the mainsail causes MORE wind to flow on the lee side of the jib!!!! So, if it is the combination of jib AND mainsail that does the work efficiently, and the jib & mainsail are cut/shaped/ and 'timed' to good effect with respect to ONE ANOTHER, you can have the best jib in the world OR the best mainsail in the world and still the 'output' of the combination of the two can be quite 'dismal'.

If you're interested in PHRF racing, even beer can / PHRF racing, get thee to a loft that builds racing sails for the LOCAL fleets. Then tell the sailmaker what estimated percent of your estimated time on the water for both practicing to race and actually racing vs. 'just cruising' --- where you will be racing; also, you MUST discuss your 'honest' helmsmanship ability. That loft will KNOW the typical wind strengths and sea states and will OPTIMIZE the shape of the sail; and also be able to dial-in your helmsmanship ability into the design of the computer lofting program all based on the prevailing LOCAL conditions and your (honest) ability on the tiller/wheel. If you don't make this 'clear' to the sailmaker, all you're going to get is a plain vanilla, 'forgiving' (a 'well rounded luff entry shape for wide attack angle - for the typical 'inattentive' helmsman); but, a not very fast cruiser's (beginner's !!!) cut sail. Discuss in GREAT DETAIL the intended usage, your sailing venue, including your 'aspirations' .... or suffer from owning a 'plain vanilla'.

Materials- If woven dacron and PHRF, then I'd recommend a high quality cloth such as 'high aspect ratio' Marblehead, Contender or Challenge - very stable, very long lasting, and can take a lot of abuse. For sail shape 'adjustability', choose a simple cross-cut; for a more 'firmer' shape with less 'adjustability' choose a radial or semi-radial panel shape.

Other -
1. for racing/cruising consider two full battens at the top and two LONG battens down toward the foot - easier to reef!!
2. for 'gonads to the wall' racing or long distance 'performance' cruising consider to have an extra length of dacron luff bolt rope arranged and 'stored' (hand stitched) to the headboard so that when the bolt rope eventually shrinks (from hard usage of that mainsail) the loft can just 'clip' the bolt rope stitching at near the head and quickly, easily, and CHEAPLY restore the luff length back to the proper original design luff length. A few $$ once every year or two of hard usage; but only if the bolt rope is 'stored' and all ready to go. Don't do this and .... either LOTS of sail maintenance expense every two years or 'new' mainsail every two or three years of 'hard' sailing. If you do this, then its YOUR responsibility to keep a firm hard copy record of the OEM 'as built' luff length - ask for a copy of the computer design output with all the shape and length benchmarks and have the loft verify the as-built luff length. Sail lofts do not like to do this extra length bolt rope storage onto the headboard; INSIST this to be included in the quote ..... or buy another 'new' mainsail much sooner than later.

Really, if you're going to do Wednesday night beer can races on the Ches. ... usually in 'light' wind, NO-to-very small wave conditions- consider a FLAT/low draft shaped 'lighter weight' mainsail specifically for 0-10kts winds/waves .... then simply get the 'old' mainsail evaluated and 'corrected' (bolt rope length) and returned/rebuilt to 'decent' shape for 'cruiser stuff'. Use either of the two mains as the day's conditions warrant Here's how to evaluate the condition of your old mainsail (use 90° tack angle as your guide) and no matter if the sail was built with an old fashioned 'shortened' luff bolt rope or not: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail | SailboatOwners.com Forums

Rx: Marblehead, Contender, Challenge for your woven dacron cloth.

:)
 
#12 ·
I agree with Rich. One sail without the other doesn't work as well as both in combination. I also agree to get a good Dacron like challenge. You get what you pay for with sails. They all look great for 5 years but which look good at 10.
 
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