Future of Sailing? - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 10-22-2006
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 107 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Additional Thoughts...

Well, I will share some of the points of this system as they have been presented to me. I have not totally researched all of these... so please feel free to point out differences. However, here is my understanding:

1) The Generator versus two diesels is MORE efficient, not less.

2) Sailboats require diesel. Sorry guys. If you are daysailing on a 16 foot hobie, please accept my apologies. However, for the rest of us that sail large boats, I must break the hard reality that we are motor boats too. If you are cruising... you are a motor boat that has the potential for other forms of movememnt... not the other way around. (Wow, isnt that going to get me some nasty IM's).

3) Here is the beauty of an electric drive. If you have diesel engines as your means of mechanical propulsion, you CANNOT get diesel from the air or water (well, unless you are in Houston, HAHA). You are limited by your tanks and the closest gas station (in reality). Now, if you had these electric drives, imagine replacing the very heavy weight (and cost) of two diesels with large solar arrays and wind generators. Maybe three or four generators? Maybe Eight or ten panels of solar. Am I dreaming? Maybe a little... but if you did, I would imagine the theoretcial (yes, theoretical) yield could be awesome.

4) The Lagoon 420 has a cruising range of 2000 nm. Now, I am not sure exactly how they added all that up, but it was portrayed to me as the efficiency gained by the electric motors.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 10-23-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
apples and oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chebacco30
...
Probably because it is too expensive, too complicated and probably provides little increase in efficiency. If we are talking about a motor-sailer/condo with washer, drier, big screen TV, dishwasher, etc., etc. then yes, maybe, but not for a sailboat.
For the weekend sailor (most of us), a big difference in efficiency wouldn't even matter. This season is almost over for us and with heavy weekend use we've only used about 40 gallons of diesel on our 34 footer. At $3/gallon that's only about $120/year. Suppose you could magically increase efficiency by 25%, that's only $30/year saved which isn't relevant when it comes to sailboat costs.

I think to get traction in our community they need to turn it into an apples and oranges argument. Fischer has the right idea putting the steerable electric motor outside the hull, eliminating all motor noise for short periods on batteries, and providing much better manuevering in close quarters.
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 10-23-2006
Owner, Green Bay Packers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 10,318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Balderdash!

Recharging batteries for "house" use on a sailboat is one thing. Recharging batteries for propulsion use quite another. Solar power is wildly inefficient and propulsion demands are extravagant by comparison.
The reason we all putt about with our diesel engines is that, even though they are inefficient, they still get the most propulsion per btu of energy. Sailing is vastly more efficient, but has it's weaknesses, hence the diesel.
Nuclear power is also very inefficient, with the exception of the vast amount of btu's we can extract from a relatively small amount of fuel. There are no direct drive nuclear power engines, ala diesel motors. We take the nuclear supplied btu's and heat water, and use the steam to turn turbine blades. We take a coffee cup of fuel to power a turbine the size of a small garage. Not sure how soon we'll see one on our sailboats!
Think of solar power as a light bulb, and we are trying to use it to warm something up. It only works if we're real close to it or we have a really big light bulb!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 10-23-2006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brussels
Posts: 249
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
chrondi is an unknown quantity at this point
I find it strange that within a forum supposed to promote sailing there is so much talk about motor propulsion (even supplied by nuclear energy). Very strange indeed!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 10-23-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrondi
I find it strange that within a forum supposed to promote sailing there is so much talk about motor propulsion (even supplied by nuclear energy). Very strange indeed!
Come on Chrondi, motor propulsion itself promotes sailing ! The weekend cruising I do wouldn't be practical without the "auxiliary" power plant. I need that thing to get me home for work Monday when the winds don't cooperate. I'll bet you'll find threads on this site on every system on sailboats.
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...

Last edited by captnnero; 10-23-2006 at 09:11 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 10-23-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
two for one

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21
Recharging batteries for "house" use on a sailboat is one thing. Recharging batteries for propulsion use quite another. Solar power is wildly inefficient and propulsion demands are extravagant by comparison.
The reason we all putt about with our diesel engines is that, even though they are inefficient, they still get the most propulsion per btu of energy. ...
Sailaway, consider how many boats have a diesel genset and a propulsion diesel these days. If electric propulsion can be done well two diesels can be collapsed into one even. On the Lagoon they eliminated the two direct propulsion diesels and subsituted the comparatively smaller diesel genset for propulsion electric power. But they also ended up with a genset for non-motoring needs.

In the case of smaller monohulls with direct drive diesels, often there is not room for genset or it is a huge space trade-off. The electric motors themselves are very small, and in the case of the Fischer-Panda WhisperProp the tiny motor is under the hull. The footprint to cram in the boat is the genset. So for those slender monohulls less than thirty-something LOA a diesel electric solution for propulsion and house power would go a long way if the cruisers want those high house power items such as air conditioning.

Such diesel electric solutions are still rather expensive. If you look at where the prices have gone for new sailboats, I think there's some room there for some optional diesel electric solutions.

As for going nuke, with current nuclear power technology and the inherrent safety risks there will never be a boating consumer solution, much less any individual consumer solution. Besides the regular safety issues, can anyone imagine a world where we'd allow a company to sell radioactive isotope materials to private individuals ? Think about all of those terrorists out there ! Then stop thinking about it and go sailing...
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 10-23-2006
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,625
Thanks: 2
Thanked 89 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
"Think about all of those terrorists out there ! "
On the other hand, if there was a civilian market for nuclear fuel, we might provide so much demand for it that we priced the terrorists out of the market.
Or, we could conduct pre-emptive strikes.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 10-23-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
"Think about all of those terrorists out there ! "
On the other hand, if there was a civilian market for nuclear fuel, we might provide so much demand for it that we priced the terrorists out of the market.
Or, we could conduct pre-emptive strikes.
Hellosailor, on your last post did you think maybe you were really in the Fight Club thread ? Just checking...
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 10-23-2006
Owner, Green Bay Packers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 10,318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
It's the batteries

Maybe I missed something here. What good is eliminating a diesel engine if the resultant space is taken up by batteries? And you will need more batteries. Shaft horse power from the direct drive diesel engine would be significantly greater than the shp from an electric motor driven by the same size engine, reconfigured as a diesel generator. I'm not negative about the idea, just sceptical. My biggest concern, as previously posted, is the large voltages that would be employed. Direct current is best employed with large voltages and small amperages, AC just the opposite. With either, it's the voltage that kills you. 12 volts you can make lots of mistakes, 115 volts you can make a few mistakes, 230 volts you can make a mistake, 440 volts nobody remembers making a mistake! That's actually not quite true; accidents involving 440 will many times knock the person away from the power source, thereby saving their life. That assumes there is room to be knocked away to, and guess what we don't have on a sailboat.
Interesting idea, I'm sure we'll be hearing alot more in the future. I wonder how those Toyotas are going to do down the road. Like when they start getting stray voltage, and electrolysis sets in. You thought they rusted back in the seventies!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 10-24-2006
captnnero's Avatar
yacht broker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Herring Bay, Maryland
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
captnnero is on a distinguished road
batteries, smatteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21
Maybe I missed something here.
Sailaway, maybe, may not. Did you read my post #16 and read the link ? That might address your power analysis issue. It's not just about shaft HP. The torque available from an electric motor can be put to better use with a larger prop. The link in #16 has a good discussion of the diesel electric vs direct diesel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21
What good is eliminating a diesel engine if the resultant space is taken up by batteries? And you will need more batteries....
Good question, but that's an apples and oranges argument when it comes to space. For the high voltages you need more batteries but they if fact can be much smaller batteries. It just depends on how long you want to run with the diesel off and how much space that you have. The nice thing about batteries is particularly in a new vessel design they can be scattered around a lot or spread out linearly versus a diesel which needs a big fat chunk of space in one spot. The genset itself doesn't need to be in a convenient shaft alignment spot either which provides more design options and potential efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21
My biggest concern, as previously posted, is the large voltages that would be employed. ...
Some people are already distributing 110 or 220 underway to power the air conditioning on 40 foot plus yachts. They're definitely getting into the high voltage category already. When none other than Nigel Calder recently had his diesel electric Malo 45 built, the availability of power distribution systems along with diesel electric propulsion systems were the two deciding factors for him to experiment with it. I'm hoping we'll hear his conclusions on all of that this spring. We'll see.
__________________
-- neal
___________________

For my headstone:

If I'd only listened to those guys about that wing keel...

Last edited by captnnero; 10-24-2006 at 07:55 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cats on Board slosharron Living Aboard 74 04-07-2014 09:12 AM
Sanctuary sailing into the future (Alpena News) NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-24-2006 10:15 PM
Sailing: Helena chases a golden future after silver show (Independent) NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-09-2006 08:15 PM
SAILING IN THE AEGEAN OLYMPICYACHTS Chartering 0 11-20-2002 12:54 PM
ISAF Eligibility Requirements paulk Racing 4 02-05-2001 11:25 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:32 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.