Question for Mailormitch - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-14-2006
IMS IMS is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
IMS is on a distinguished road
Question for Mailormitch

Sailor Mitch,

Last edited by IMS; 11-27-2006 at 08:58 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 11-14-2006
SailorMitch's Avatar
Senior Moment
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,931
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
SailorMitch will become famous soon enough
Are you talking to me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS
Sailor Mitch,

I can see you so proudly display a (old tech) winged keel.

My question is why use winged keels, and then make a keel as thick as a tree??? With a frontal area of a Mack truck!!

please change the photo to a side view of the keel, at least we don´t see the in-efficiency of the thing.

Unless you are proud of showing it as an old-time relik!!

IMS 500, sailing hard with a torpedo keel!!
Dear IMS,

Hey, thanks for all the kind words about my keel! Yes, she is a thing of beauty and efficiency! Oh -- from that pic you can't get an idea of how well the leading edge of the keel is rounded just so to slip through the water. Thick as a tree? No way. Well, maybe a sapling?

Now for the (semi) serious answers -- my avatar and tag line after my signature are in response to the personal opinions -- and even hyperbole --presented as facts by some who have either very little, or no experience at all sailing with a winged keel. Let's just call it an attempt to give fair and balanced coverage of the issue.

Do I pretend that my mid-1980's designed wing is the greatest thing since sliced bread? No. But it performs admirably well whether going to windward or running with the wind. In fact, I find my Pearson 33-2 to be very closed winded. Last summer I sailed right behind a sister ship with the deep fin on a breezy day and only noticed a slight difference of a couple of degrees in windward ability. Plus that boat had a crew of 3 and I was by myself. Give me more hands to trim sails and there may have been no difference at all.

As for running aground, I have all kinds of testimonials from winged keel sailors about how they have never required assistance to get off a grounding. Are wings likely to be harder to get off the bottom than a fin? Probably yes in many cases, but not all. My boat draws 4'2" and is still sailing when the fin keel version at 5'11" is stuck but good. In fact, I challenge all you fin keelers to a race -- in 5 feet of water. Let us decide this on the water! Fins dig in deep -- wings bounce on top.

I've been thinking lately about changing the avatar. I'll work on that. In the meantime, IMS -- thanks for noticing! (And you need a good proof reader.)

And is that torpedo keel flattened at all -- with winglets? Check out some of these newer keels on some boats. Bene 36.7 is one example. Those bulbs are pretty flat with winglets. Looking VERY familiar to me!
__________________
SailorMitch
Sailing winged keels since 1989.
1.20.09 Bush's last day the end of an error !! Hopefully we still have a constitution and economy left by then.


"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength." The Dalai Lama


good planets are hard to find-- a song by steve forbert


I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging the future but by the past.-- Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 11-14-2006
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Yes, but in a grounding, I'm willing to bet that SailorMitch's keel holds up better. The larger area of the keel allows it to spread the stress of the impact out over a larger area... Your keel would probably rip out....
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 11-14-2006
pigslo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 804
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
pigslo is on a distinguished road
Sailormitch, I would not let some guy that just logged on 2 days ago with his nose in the air to bother you. Especially a guy who can't read your name and type it on screen. Yes unfortunately my nose is always in the air but I am a pig so I have an excuse.
I take the guys with a grain of salt that have nothing better to do than make fun of boats that are different than theirs. All boats are a compromise of one or another. Besides that , you are comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy Suburban and that just tells me all you posted for was the opportunity to tell everone on the board how much money you have.

Last edited by pigslo; 11-14-2006 at 11:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 11-14-2006
SailorMitch's Avatar
Senior Moment
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,931
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
SailorMitch will become famous soon enough
IMS,

Hey, you got one cool boat! We live in two different worlds -- you have a beautiful, slick racer, I have a beautiful, not so slick, cruiser. We are both happy, right?

Yes, I know my keel is a thing of the past. It was the cool thing in the mid-80's after the Aussies took the AC with their wing for the production builders to show they were "with it". Plus, I think wings probably were cheaper to build and install than the keel/centerboards common on boats up to that point to get shoal draft. Call my wing a step in the evolution to what you have, sort of?

Anyway, no offense taken. Thanks for the pics of your boat. I bet that baby will fly -- unless you take me up on my offer to race in 5 ft of water. As for S-Dog, he is one of those who fixates on groundings and how everybody's keels will rip off and you'll die, etc. But usually he puts all those dire warnings in bold type! Hey -- I just realized that's the first good thing he's ever said about my wing. Thanks, S-Dog!
__________________
SailorMitch
Sailing winged keels since 1989.
1.20.09 Bush's last day the end of an error !! Hopefully we still have a constitution and economy left by then.


"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength." The Dalai Lama


good planets are hard to find-- a song by steve forbert


I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging the future but by the past.-- Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 11-14-2006
SailorMitch's Avatar
Senior Moment
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,931
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
SailorMitch will become famous soon enough
Seems we are all a bit testy tonight? Pig -- thanks for the support. Frankly, when I first read IMS's post and saw he was a newbie, I figured it was one of my friends (yes, I do have some!) logging on to razz me. After his other posts, I don't think that anymore. Obviously he hasn't been on here long enough to have read the myriad threads about keels -- wings, fins, bulbs, groundings, you'll die if you run that thing aground, misrepresented studies about which keels are harder to get off the bottom, tow-boat captains who twist a boat with a wing into the bottom like a screwpile and then "have" to call another tow boat to join in the fun (and to double bill perhaps?), and on and on.

And IMS -- as for running my wing aground and damage -- this season alone I touched bottom I think 3 times. The boat is still vertical, so nothing important has fallen off yet. And my bilge is dry as a bone also. Of course, this is on the Chesapeake where soft mud us king and very kind to keels. It would be interesting to do the math, however, of your boat touching bottom vs. mine. Yes, my boat is heavier, but you'll be going much faster so that part of the equation will create more force........ But I'll let you folks puzzle that one out.
__________________
SailorMitch
Sailing winged keels since 1989.
1.20.09 Bush's last day the end of an error !! Hopefully we still have a constitution and economy left by then.


"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength." The Dalai Lama


good planets are hard to find-- a song by steve forbert


I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging the future but by the past.-- Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 11-14-2006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
Goodnewsboy is on a distinguished road
It all sounds a little suspect.

Bounce or no bounce, the kinetic energy to be dissipated when boat meets bottom varies as mass (displacement) times the square of boat velocity. (A little extra speed makes up for quite a bit of displacement in a heavier boat.) Assuming equal displacement, a boat striking bottom at 20 knots represents about eight times the kinetic energy that it would at 7 knots.

The nice long lever provided by this deep keel allows the force developed during the dissipation of the aforementioned energy to produce a significant moment that must be resisted by a very short (in the fore and aft direction) attachment base where it meets the hull. The effect will be to tear the keel from the hull, starting at the leading edge. Let's hope it is very strongly attached to a substantial structure that can distribute the resulting loads within the hull.

BTW, since the keel has virtually no width at the point where it attaches to the hull, it is even weaker in the athwartships direction. I also suspect that the fin (blade?) flexes between hull and lead when sailing, and it would be interesting to ask the designer about its expected fatigue life.

Stay in deep water.

Last edited by Goodnewsboy; 11-15-2006 at 08:07 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 11-14-2006
SailorMitch's Avatar
Senior Moment
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,931
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
SailorMitch will become famous soon enough
Can't we all just be friends?

Pig -- please chill. It's not a contest.

Goodnewsboy -- I knew someone would analyze the forces involved. I was a liberal arts major and stayed as far away from math as I could. A good friend of mine has a PhD in math and teaches at Emory so I refer all my math questions to him. I'll let others critique your work.

Interesting twists to this topic tonight, huh?

IMS -- I do recall you as Alpha Romeo. But by saying that, now Pig REALLY thinks you are rich. Maybe I can get a new name on here as Subaru.

And IMS, should you ever need rail meat, give me a call.
__________________
SailorMitch
Sailing winged keels since 1989.
1.20.09 Bush's last day the end of an error !! Hopefully we still have a constitution and economy left by then.


"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength." The Dalai Lama


good planets are hard to find-- a song by steve forbert


I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging the future but by the past.-- Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 11-14-2006
SailorMitch's Avatar
Senior Moment
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,931
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
SailorMitch will become famous soon enough
Weird is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS
Sailormitch,

I have been around, and that for a long while, I simply was never a very participative one, at least writing. I normally only read whatever interests me.

The “keel” thing started because one of the crew saw your keel photograph and we were talking about it. Then I wrote the posting after getting really mad with someone at the office….had to let some steam go.

Anyway, if you read my previous post, I do state that we can only compare damages IF and only IF, we both are at the same speed.

Hey, have you noticed how this thing just spiraled into some weird discussion
IMS -- understood about the forces at same speed, etc. No biggee. Just so you know, the first thing my wing does when it touches bottom is to bounce up. It doesn't dig in right away, even with an 11,000 lb boat. When I feel that bounce, I start steering for deep water like mad!

Interesting that one of your crew saw my avatar and sort of got this all started. Keelhaul him next time, ok?



Yes, this all has gotten very weird very quickly.
__________________
SailorMitch
Sailing winged keels since 1989.
1.20.09 Bush's last day the end of an error !! Hopefully we still have a constitution and economy left by then.


"Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength." The Dalai Lama


good planets are hard to find-- a song by steve forbert


I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging the future but by the past.-- Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 11-15-2006
Owner, Green Bay Packers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 10,318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
It took me six hours to put those stripes on my car and then somebody told me my angle of incidence was wrong and I had to do them over. NOW you're telling me they don't make my car go faster? Are you using a GPS for SOG or a knot log, cause I got a brand new NSA derived Speed-a-rama and it says...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Naive novice question re: buying a boat Conny Boat Review and Purchase Forum 12 07-21-2003 10:45 PM
Glassing Question pirateofcapeann Gear & Maintenance 6 05-29-2003 03:58 AM
strange design question sailorman_10 General Discussion (sailing related) 4 03-30-2003 06:37 PM
question on sails Mark_OD23 General Discussion (sailing related) 6 11-19-2002 05:41 PM
Question about marine diesels bdkorth Learning to Sail 9 07-03-2002 11:52 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:31 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.