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  #21  
Old 11-18-2006
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If I've read things correctly, if a Ham operator has a station license and a ham license, there is no reason he would not be able to transmit and receive on the marine SSB frequencies.

Also, if I read things correctly, a Ham radio can be used by a person with a RRO and Ship's station license to transmit on marine-SSB bands, but can not transmit on Ham frequencies unless they have a Ham license.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2006
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Sailingdog I think you have things about right. For marine band use there is no operators license required in the US (it is required in some foreign countries, so get it if you are going international). The only license required for use of the marine bands is the ships license. For use of the ham bands a ham license is required of the operator, but there is no "ships" license.

One complication that has not been discussed is that only "approved" transmitters can be used for either set of bands. It has only been fairly recently that some sets have been approved for both. In 1994 when I put my first HF transceiver in my boat, SGC made the only rig approved for both. They got it approved by really dumbing down the user interface. This radio has NO knobs, only push buttons. I know nothing in detail about the requirements for approval for use in either service, only that the marine use systems have to be more "idiot-proof", have better frequency accuracy and stability, things like that. I assume this is because there is no required technical knowledge to get the marine operator license.
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2006
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Well - Almost Correct

Sailing Dog and qc1111,

"If I've read things correctly, if a Ham operator has a station license and a ham license, there is no reason he would not be able to transmit and receive on the marine SSB frequencies."

Not quite. He/she would be able to RECEIVE on the marine SSB frequencies, not transmit....at least, not legally. Unless he/she also had a RRO AND a radio which was type accepted for use on the marine bands.

As has been previously noted, the Icom M-802 apparently is type-accepted for use on both amateur/ham bands and the marine bands, IF you have the proper licenses for both services. A couple of other rigs are in the same category, but for most people TWO radios would be needed to LEGALLY transmit on both the ham and the marine SSB bands.
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2006
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Sorry, I got interrupted before finishing.

Interestingly, the cost of marine SSB such as the Icom M700Pro or M710 (about $1,100 new) and a modest ham radio such as the Icom 715 ($550 new) TOGETHER are about the same as the M-802 by itself ($1,800 new).

In other words, you can buy two radios for the price of the M-802. Why would you want to do this?

Well, some wouldn't, because of simplicity, space, or other considerations. Some would because of redundancy, easier ham band use (ham radios have more 'bells and whistles' and are easier to use in the amateur service), or other reason, such as wanting to get started at a lower cost with one or the other, and adding on later.

By the way, the less-expensive Icom marine radios may also be used on the ham bands IF you have a proper ham license.

Bill
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S/V Born Free
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2006
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Any suggestions on where to shop for the equipment?
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  #26  
Old 11-19-2006
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Btrayfors-

So an operator would require both a Ham license, a marine RRO license, and a ships station license to broadcast on both Ham and Marine SSB bands, provided the gear was type-accepted. I thought that a Ham license trumped a RRO license, and only one or the other would be required. It doesn't make sense that a Ham license wouldn't be accepted in place of the much less rigorous RRO license.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #27  
Old 11-19-2006
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sailingdog,

Well, many things don't make sense in this world. A ham license doesn't trump anything. It simply allows you to set up a station and to transmit on the allocated ham bands, according to the class of license you have earned. Amateur Extra Class licensees may use any amateur band/frequency. Lesser class licenses permit operation in subportions of the allocated amateur bands.

To operate on the marine ssb bands legally you need:

1. a RRO (no exam; you just pay a license fee);
2. a station license (same one covers all transmitting equipment...radar, EPIRB, etc.); and
3. a type-approved marine radio.

I really don't get why this is so difficult to understand. Maybe what's confusing for newcomers to the HF world is that ham equipment can often be made to operate on the marine bands, and some people do this, even though it is illegal. But the rules and guidelines are very clear: ham radios are intended for ham band use ONLY. Although, technically, they often can be modified to work on the marine HF bands, the aircraft HF bands, the CB band, etc., such use is ILLEGAL....it is illegal EVEN IF THE OPERATOR HOLDS A LICENSE TO OPERATE A RADIO ON THESE OTHER BANDS. Ham radios are legal to operate ONLY on the ham bands.

By "operate" I mean TRANSMIT. Obviously, anyone can LISTEN to any transmission in the HF range (and the VHF, UHF, LF, and other ranges also, except for cellular phone frequencies).

Marine radios are intended for marine band use ONLY (with the exception of those like the M-802 which have apparently gained type-acceptance for both marine and ham use).

Bill
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2006
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Hams are generally prohibited from all one-way transmissions, better known as "broadcasts". A broadcast is one-way, a "communication" is two-way. The specific section of the FCC regulations governing this *does* allow limited one-way broadcasts as below (s.4 & 6) but I doubt they would consider one-way delivery of private messages to fall within the legal scope of them:

Part 97.111 :
(b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically
authorized elsewhere in this Part, an amateur station may
transmit the following types of one-way communications:
(1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the
station;
(2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way
communications with other stations;
(3) Telecommand;
(4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency
communications;
(5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning,
or improving proficiency in, the international Morse code;
(6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information
bulletins;
(7) Transmissions of telemetry.

§97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this
Part;
(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation,
direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise
provided in these rules;
(3) Communications in which the station licensee or control
operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications
on behalf of an employer. Amateur operators may, however,
notify other amateur operators of the availability for sale
or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station,
provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular
basis;
(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically
provided elsewhere in this Section; communications intended
to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers
intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise
provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or
false or deceptive messages, signals or identification;
(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could
reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio
services.
(b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of
broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way
communications except as specifically provided in these
rules; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity
related to program production or news gathering for
broadcasting purposes, except that communications directly
related to the immediate safety of human life or the
protection of property may be provided by amateur stations
to broadcasters for dissemination to the public where no
other means of communication is reasonably available before
or at the time of the event.

I'm sporadically online this week and may be slow to make any replies.

Now, on the perennial "other hand"......If your shipboard party happen to know TWO hams, and those two hams happen to mention things about the shipboard party during the course of their communications...there's nothing wrong with that. So if BT & I were to have a ham chat about our friends en route to wherever, who would have a faster passage if they diverted north, or who should stop over in wherever, etc...Then that would be OK, because it would be a conversation--not a one-way broadcast. It might be a totally bogus conversation actually hiding a one-way broadcast, but it would appear to be legal.

So there are ways and there are ways, and yes, enforcement of many things in this life is erratic. (Ever get a jaywalking ticket? But some people do.) Easier, still, do just get the proper equipment and permits, and use a legally sanctioned means of communications.
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2006
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Crap,

I thought all you vaunted (and learned) types would be able to graciously and masterfully be able to eludicate me in a moment.
Apparently, I have yet again been caught in naivitae...
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN WHOSE KNOWLEDGE CAN TRUMP ANY OTHERS'.
Maybe someone with practical and pragmatic knowledge will join us here?
For those of us that actually cruise the oceans and make passages, this well found and tactile (pragmatic) knowledge I seek (assuredly HARD-WON) would in practice, and disseminated in a less high handed manner (IMHO) portend towards the safety af all.
(What a pile...)
I personally do not care all that much for the rules/regs of the country with the highest incarceration rate in the history of mankind, as I do the safety and comfort of any crew I happen to have aboard. AGAIN- I will ask, once! more, how in the hell do you utilise this expensive piece of equipment (esp in emergency sit.)? How does one commo with the land? What actually works, for God's sake? (I got green crew.)
Thanks again...
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2006
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Hang on you got some pretty reasonable replies. To answer your original questions. You can't have a direct radio conversation with a ham without a ham licence. The fancy modes I would ignore - though someone else told you what they are.
Our system in NZ is that you sit a RRTOC exam to operate a marine SSB. It is worth it to know what you are doing for Maydays, mayday relays etc. You also need to know your radio. We are required to display the licence and have a card showing others how to operate the radio for a distress signal. Reasonable and should be covered in a briefing.
You need to read up on it all. Try http://www.cruisingclub.org/seamansh...p_offshore.htm which also gives ICOM operating instructions and other stuff..
You can get a free manual from http://www.msa.govt.nz/publications/...o_Handbook.pdf although it says coastal it is also offshore. You should carry something similar onboard. A ssb radio is required for offshore passages here because you need it for long distances.
To do your ham chats you need a ham licence which can be useful, but requires some study. In the US I understand it still requires basic morse whereas here it does not. A local group may well put out a guide to getting it.
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