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Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

29K views 229 replies 73 participants last post by  Squidd 
#1 ·
I live in Florida - my observation is based on what I see here


I think big boat ownership is doing OK - however under 35 feet there seems not much to be going on. Used to be when crossing the St Johns River in Jacksonville on a nice day I would 6-8 sailboats out - now lucky to see one. On the intracoastal in Cocoa - I see large boats heading north and south 35 ft -50 feet - some newer cruising catamarans - but I don't see 22-30 ft boats like I use to out for a day sail. In the marinas the smaller boats don't seem to get much usage or love.

I think many just charter when they want to go sailing - owning a boat and the $$ that it takes to keep it up - seems wasteful to most.

But again - my observations from Florida - is it the same elsewhere?
 
#2 ·
Your observation is correct in my experience. It will come back when gas gets expensive again.
 
#32 ·
Surveys and studies in the Chesapeake Bay region do not support this.
Believe it or not, people simply keep buying power boats but merely limit their range of travel in reaction to fuel prices.

The bottom line is that powerboats do not require any skill to operate. In Maryland, you take a silly little safety course online and print out your Completion Certificate and that's it.

Sailing is a skill that takes a little time to cultivate and to many, it looks like too much effort expended for too little reward regardless of the fuel savings.
 
#3 ·
I don't see it as the case on the Chesapeake where I boat. Even in winter there are boats sailing. Quite a few hardy folks who are members of this forum enjoy bay day sailing in the winter.
 
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#4 ·
Seems to me that while the sales of new sailboats is apparently down, that the marinas still seem fairly full and at least around me with a good percentage of sailboats. But every year folks are saying the end of sailing is neigh. I think it will survive, and there are some good vlogs out there from young sailors that should encourage the kids to buy a cheap old boat and sail the barnacles off the bottom. I would say here in the Hudson Valley (just north of NYC) there are lots of folks still sailing.
 
#7 ·
I suspect what you're seeing has as much (or more) to do with families needing two incomes to make ends meet, with job and other demands on peoples' time making recreation less attainable. Plus it's easier to buy/rent a tent trailer and go on a road trip than to figure out how to sail a boat.

Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock. In our area presumably someone is still paying $4-5K/year to 'keep' something they clearly never use.
 
#10 ·
I've been seeing this trend in almost all the marinas I've frequented to... many boats covered in algae, dirt, bird poop, etc. Never seen 75% or more of the boats ever going out. When I had my U.S. Yachts in the Everett marina only about 4 -7 boats ever left the slips besides myself. No one left and most were live-a-boards, the rest were power boats and the occasional other month usage of these boats. It makes you wonder why people buy into these things and the dreams fade away for many.
 
#8 ·
Seems to be the same number of boats out in my area as before and the mooring field is pretty much sold out for the season.
 
#9 ·
Is ownership dying ? From my observations in Connecticut perhaps not yet but only because the owners themselves haven't died yet.
Sailboat owners as a demographic seem to be getting older not unlike the classic car hobby. Case in point , this past weekend I went to rhinebeck ny for a car show swap meet, and there is a booth at the entrance that rents jazzy power scooters, same car owners , just aging without anywhere near the numbers of younger generations coming into the hobby to replace those that pass on or are infirmed and unable to be involved any longer.
Boating as a whole seems to be doing well, but the bulk of younger and those with young families it seems gravitate towards smaller power boats. No storage , park it on the side of the garage , drop it in the river, lake , bay, etc, hit the key whiz around , waterski, pull the kids on the tube , load up bring it home , nice and easy . Not that they couldn't buy a trailer sailor, but I don't care how quick it is to step that mast , the thrill for most is pushing that throttle open and skimming across the water.
Same situation at the yard my boat is in , same people for the most part just getting older.
 
#11 ·
The marina's are all oversubscribed in my neighborhood, but mostly with power boats. Most of the sailboat owners I know are old (like me), but that maybe because I know of lot of old people:laugh

What I don't see a lot of is what my contemporaries did in our 30's and 40's. We bought our first cruising sailboats, and became hooked on the lifestyle...spending any free time we could get either working on or sailing these boats. We worked hard, but this kept us sane (or at least we thought so).

And I agree with everyone, there's a lot more boats sitting on docks than getting used, but that's not a new phenomena at all IMHO.
 
#12 ·
Well I guess we 'raised him right' ;).. Our son bought his first boat in his 20s (before marrying or a first home).. And now at 34 is on his third boat. So I guess he and his family are bucking the trend.

We spent the weekend with them, the boat and the beach are clearly our 8 yr old grandaughter's 'happy places'. Awesome to see that family tradition carrying on...
 
#14 ·
I'd say it's alive and well in Presquile Bay. The marina I'm in has a couple center console fishing boats, the rest are sail. Average age I'd say mid to late 40's. There is also the yacht club around the corner that is full with a waiting list I believe.
I see most everybody on a regular basis even if we're just sitting on the boats on a calm summer evening talking boat.
Maybe because of the short season we make the effort to get as much boat time in as possible. Winters are long and cold up here!
 
#15 ·
Boats sitting is a limiting factor where I am.

We have a small marina with a waiting list a mile long and each of the three docks has at least one abandoned boat languishing on it.

Like this one:



Our dry storage yard has 35% of it's space occupied by abandoned boats many of which were clearly fabulous boats when they were parked but are now nearly full to the brim with water in the cabins growing God only knows what inside.

We have "25" mooring balls minus the 4 that my boat and the other heavier boat yanked out last season (the county does not really understand that sailboats are heavy) That leaves 21 balls but in reality 5 of those are too close to each other for anything to stay at and a further two are in water so shallow that you'd run a Sunfish aground if you tried to get to them. Another 2 of them are occupied by ghost ships that are kept afloat by a few of us who dingy over to them and pump them out when they start to get low in the water.

So...

A nice young couple showed up last weekend with a Westerly Centaur and were just barely able to get noodled in ending up on a ball way back up in the swamp end of the mooring field at a lake that has a perfectly sized marina, with plenty of dry sail area to park trailers in. The next family will not make it in which means that I and my active neighbors will sail on in the company of the Marie Celestes of the world while folks who want to sail are shut out.

This is a problem on an inland lake... I thought I had seen the last of this when I moved away from the coast!

I am certain this is a limiting factor elsewhere as well.
 
#17 ·
I sincerely believe that boating, in general, has gone by the wayside, even in the confines of Chesapeake Bay where recreational boating was at one time $billion dollar a year business with a huge number of boat and outdoor shows. Many of the boat shows are mere skeletons of what they were just two decades ago, and more than half of the shows no longer exist.

Some of this is due to the lack of funds to enjoy what at one time was a relatively inexpensive pastime. Additionally, recreational fishing is extremely expensive, and the catch limits have been reduced to next to nothing, therefore making it impracticable to spend a day on the bay and hoping to catch enough fish to feed the family for more than a single meal.

When I was young, about 23 years of age, I owned a 30-foot mahogany cabin cruiser powered with a flathead, Ford six that had been converted for marine use. I paid $1,500 for the boat, had to finance it, and the bank really didn't want to give me the loan. I kept it at Deep Creek on the lower Magothy River, and the slip rent back then was $1 per foot per month and included water and electricity. My wife and I would purchase a bushel of soft shell clams for bait, which cost about $2, motor across the bay to the Dumping Grounds, which is situated about 1/4-mile west of Kent Island, and chum for striped bass. We were usually accompanied by at least another 500 or more boats, all doing the same thing. Out catches consisted of striped bass to 5 pounds, croaker to 3 pounds, and an occasional bluefish or weakfish to 10 pounds. It usually only took a couple hours to fill an 80 quart cooler chest with fish, then we motored back to the marina and cleaned our catch before heading home.

Today, you would be hard pressed to find a dozen fishing boats in that same area, and those that are there will likely be trolling, because chumming is way to expensive, even with ground menhaden for chum. The vast majority will be lucky, after 10 hours of fishing, to catch their 2 fish per person limit of striped bass. TWO FISH - THAT'S IT!

The other thing that is wiping out recreational boating, IMO, is young people want everything instantly. It's that instant gratification attitude that keeps them staring at a tiny screen of an I-phone most of their waking minutes. If they left home without it, they would be in a state of sheer panic. If it's not lightning fast, they really don't seem to want any part of it. Of course, there are some exceptions, but they are indeed rare. A great example of this was seen just today while I was sitting in the waiting room of my cardiologist. Nearly everyone under age 50 had a phone in their hands, both thumbs popping the keys as fast as possible, this despite three relatively large signs that said "POSITIVELY NO CELL PHONES USE ALLOWED IN THIS OFFICE!" I guess the geniuses that texting didn't count.

Finally, considering that the average American household income has dropped more than $4,000 in the past 7 years, for many the cost of boating is out of the question. A fair number of younger couples have moved into my neighborhood during the past decade, your professionals, and for the most part, both parents are working full time jobs just to make ends meet. Boating, even sailing, is fairly expensive, even if the boat is paid for. At the very least, slip rent is going to set you back about $300 a month in my part of Chesapeake Bay for a 30 footer. Add to that the cost of winter storage, water and electric, maintenance and repair costs, and there's no wonder that a lot of younger folks will not likely be getting into recreational boating, sailing or power.

Just my .02 cents worth,

Gary :cool:
 
#23 ·
You nailed it. Young people do not have enough disposable income to go into sailing/boating.

I sincerely believe that boating, in general, has gone by the wayside, even in the confines of Chesapeake Bay where recreational boating was at one time $billion dollar a year business with a huge number of boat and outdoor shows. Many of the boat shows are mere skeletons of what they were just two decades ago, and more than half of the shows no longer exist.

Some of this is due to the lack of funds to enjoy what at one time was a relatively inexpensive pastime. Additionally, recreational fishing is extremely expensive, and the catch limits have been reduced to next to nothing, therefore making it impracticable to spend a day on the bay and hoping to catch enough fish to feed the family for more than a single meal.

When I was young, about 23 years of age, I owned a 30-foot mahogany cabin cruiser powered with a flathead, Ford six that had been converted for marine use. I paid $1,500 for the boat, had to finance it, and the bank really didn't want to give me the loan. I kept it at Deep Creek on the lower Magothy River, and the slip rent back then was $1 per foot per month and included water and electricity. My wife and I would purchase a bushel of soft shell clams for bait, which cost about $2, motor across the bay to the Dumping Grounds, which is situated about 1/4-mile west of Kent Island, and chum for striped bass. We were usually accompanied by at least another 500 or more boats, all doing the same thing. Out catches consisted of striped bass to 5 pounds, croaker to 3 pounds, and an occasional bluefish or weakfish to 10 pounds. It usually only took a couple hours to fill an 80 quart cooler chest with fish, then we motored back to the marina and cleaned our catch before heading home.

Today, you would be hard pressed to find a dozen fishing boats in that same area, and those that are there will likely be trolling, because chumming is way to expensive, even with ground menhaden for chum. The vast majority will be lucky, after 10 hours of fishing, to catch their 2 fish per person limit of striped bass. TWO FISH - THAT'S IT!

The other thing that is wiping out recreational boating, IMO, is young people want everything instantly. It's that instant gratification attitude that keeps them staring at a tiny screen of an I-phone most of their waking minutes. If they left home without it, they would be in a state of sheer panic. If it's not lightning fast, they really don't seem to want any part of it. Of course, there are some exceptions, but they are indeed rare. A great example of this was seen just today while I was sitting in the waiting room of my cardiologist. Nearly everyone under age 50 had a phone in their hands, both thumbs popping the keys as fast as possible, this despite three relatively large signs that said "POSITIVELY NO CELL PHONES USE ALLOWED IN THIS OFFICE!" I guess the geniuses that texting didn't count.

Finally, considering that the average American household income has dropped more than $4,000 in the past 7 years, for many the cost of boating is out of the question. A fair number of younger couples have moved into my neighborhood during the past decade, your professionals, and for the most part, both parents are working full time jobs just to make ends meet. Boating, even sailing, is fairly expensive, even if the boat is paid for. At the very least, slip rent is going to set you back about $300 a month in my part of Chesapeake Bay for a 30 footer. Add to that the cost of winter storage, water and electric, maintenance and repair costs, and there's no wonder that a lot of younger folks will not likely be getting into recreational boating, sailing or power.

Just my .02 cents worth,

Gary :cool:
 
#18 ·
Counterpoint: I belong to a sailing club in NYC. When I joined 4 years ago they had like 5 or 6 boats. Now they have two locations with 15 or so J/24s and a few hobies. Tuesday evening races are full, and there's an informal pick-up racing scene. Most members are 20-30 and haven't sailed much or at all prior to joining. I guess these were the people who, in the 70's, would be buying boats? About 50 members have signed up to go out in the next 7 days, and we don't even have all the boats in the water yet.

So, even if ownership is down (I think this is a documented fact), there is a renaissance happening in community sailing. Obviously post-Carter economic effects have decimated private boat ownership, and fiberglass has decimated sales of brand-new boats. However, there's no reason *sailing* can't grow!
 
#24 ·
New York is the exception rather than the rule. I sail a lot in NYC and in the Chesapeake Bay.

Counterpoint: I belong to a sailing club in NYC. When I joined 4 years ago they had like 5 or 6 boats. Now they have two locations with 15 or so J/24s and a few hobies. Tuesday evening races are full, and there's an informal pick-up racing scene. Most members are 20-30 and haven't sailed much or at all prior to joining. I guess these were the people who, in the 70's, would be buying boats? About 50 members have signed up to go out in the next 7 days, and we don't even have all the boats in the water yet.

So, even if ownership is down (I think this is a documented fact), there is a renaissance happening in community sailing. Obviously post-Carter economic effects have decimated private boat ownership, and fiberglass has decimated sales of brand-new boats. However, there's no reason *sailing* can't grow!
 
#19 ·
http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/Cabinet432/NMMA_ecoimpact_booklet_optimized.pdf

Data from the 2012 National Marine Manufacturer's Association Recreational Boating Economic Study:

12.2M boats
9.9M powerboats (82%)
1.3M PWCs (10%)
0.25M sailboats (2%)
0.7M other boats (6%)

Sailboats represent 2% of recreational boats. Not sure how this compares with past years. I believe most of the data was from post 2008 economic crash.

I think sailing is a pretty expensive hobby/sport especially if you are paying permanent dock or slip fees. I suppose it could be more popular if there was promotion of less expensive forms of the activity to young people like windsurfing, sailing small Lasers and Hobie Cats but I see no evidence of promotions like this.

The types of sailing that could be accessible to people of modest means are not actively promoted, there's no way for those people to make the connection between themselves and that activity. And unless you know someone with a boat I don't think there's any avenue for novices to become crew for either pleasure sails or racing.

I think the appearance of the activity to the "average" person is of an insular, expensive world that has substantial barriers to entry. Not only does it appear difficult to enter, but if the image of sailors is blue blazer yacht club types (Ted Knight Caddyshack character), those people may wonder if it's even a club they want to join.

How closely this image reflects the reality is debatable but I think just the money and time investment required is daunting to the huge majority of potential sailors.

I suppose we could all reflect on how much of an ambassador each of us are being for sailing. How often do you take your boat out? When you do, how often do you invite someone who's never been sailing before, teach them the basics, how much effort do you take to insure they are having a good time etc.?
 

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#21 ·
...

The types of sailing that could be accessible to people of modest means are not actively promoted, there's no way for those people to make the connection between themselves and that activity. And unless you know someone with a boat I don't think there's any avenue for novices to become crew for either pleasure sails or racing.

I think the appearance of the activity to the "average" person is of an insular, expensive world that has substantial barriers to entry. Not only does it appear difficult to enter, but if the image of sailors is blue blazer yacht club types (Ted Knight Caddyshack character), those people may wonder if it's even a club they want to join....
Maybe I'm in the minority (in more ways than one), but when I wanted to learn to sail and buy a boat none of that ever crossed my mind as being a barrier. It didn't cross my mind period. It was something I wanted to do so I just...did it. I found a small boat that happened to be for sale about a mile away and bought it. To me it was between me and my boat, not me and "blue blazers" and the rest. I didn't grow up around boats or yacht clubs and since I don't watch a lot of movies I didn't get the Caddyshack perspective (I still haven't seen that movie). Maybe it's good that I only watched Captain Ron for the first time ten years into it and at SNer's, er, insistence.
 
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#25 ·
As others have pointed out, the economy is not exactly booming even with low fuel prices. The other problem is that the modern generations are digital, and sailing is not exactly a digital undertaking. Sailing does not produce instant gratification for those who do not appreciate their position in the cosmos as that of a pimple on the butt of a flea. My attraction to sailing (as a 60+ person) is the simple connection to those hardy souls from humanity's past who "dared to go where man had not yet trod" in wooden vessels and crude navigation instruments. It is the same thing that draws me to collect historic black powder weapons that were used in creating the world where individuals could choose their own destiny, except now we seem to be moving back to a feudal system where a few control everything and the rest of us simply endure to survive. Surviving on a sailing vessel is an attraction for me......
 
#26 ·
I certainly hope that sailing is in decline. I'm hoping to buy my first cruising sailboat soon and I'm hoping that it continues to be a buyers' market.

There are fewer people in their 70s and 80s than my age group (60s) but I read a lot of ads saying that "owner has become too old to sail and mast sell." I'm hoping to buy one of those boats.

And I like that fantasy of marinas with empty slips and moorings.
 
#122 ·
I certainly hope that sailing is in decline. I'm hoping to buy my first cruising sailboat soon and I'm hoping that it continues to be a buyers' market.

There are fewer people in their 70s and 80s than my age group (60s) but I read a lot of ads saying that "owner has become too old to sail and mast sell." I'm hoping to buy one of those boats.

And I like that fantasy of marinas with empty slips and moorings.
I'm sorry to say but it is fantasy. Marinas sell out to condo builders. The water that hundreds used to enjoy is now for the few that buy a condo. Happened on the harbor we are on and many more I hear of. This is why as the decline of boats is real, slip fees still go up.
 
#30 ·
Ownership itself is getting older.
Boat ages are also getting older (meaning many of the boats you see out there - average age - are older).
Less new boat sales as was shown earlier.

Generally less new people getting into sailing, my personal opinion.
 
#31 ·
Many good points. I don't really understand how many poor or working class people can buy a $60,000 pickup and just use it as a car, but I see it all the time here. Imagine the boat they could have. Imagine the charters, the vacations, the adventures ... by the time they pay the truck off, $60k becomes $75k. And people claim they have no money. Lots of them " rolling coal" with a $3000 set of wheels/tires.

The two income thing really kills your free time. When my wife only worked part time we would spend many more days playing hooky on the boat. And I think there is a cultural thing too, short attention spans, go fast addiction, general stupidity. "Idiocracy".

And maybe its just me, but I have a hard time getting non sailing friends to come sailing. They would rather do yard work.
 
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#37 ·
We're all here on this and other sailing forums because we own sailboats otherwise we wouldn't be here. Most of us either sailed early in our lives or were introduced by our parents, friends, vacation charter with friends, etc. This to me is how many of us started in this sailing hobby, adventure, business, etc. The problem is the new generation are not being introduced properly to sailing, or by design younger people are just not attuned to this part of life and would prefer other venues of entertainment mostly internet, music, cellphones, gaming, etc.

The life of hanging out on 30+ year old sailboats that means 'work' just doesn't appeal to younger crowds... I can't get my son interested at all in the sailboat anymore... at first he liked sailing with us but lost interest doing other more interesting (to him) adventures with his friends. The idea of sailing with 53 year old mom and 60 year old dad just wasn't in the cards for him... he'd rather be with his friends gaming/hanging out... even though we introduced him at an early age sailing/boating with us. Same with my daughter... just not interested at all... sad but this is the plight of our sailing future.

The young kids (25-35 yr olds) in our sailing club are sailors whose parents introduced them very early in their lives and it stuck with them... most young kids today will go on an outing for several days and eager to be out sailing but then they lose interest. I have to wonder how many of the kids in the Sea Scouts program actually continue to sail in their later years actually buying a sailboat and continuing this sailing life.

Here are some of the priority for the Sea Scouts this year:

What are the strategic plan priority areas for 2016?

There are five main priorities for 2016:
•Grow New Ships.
•Grow Membership.
•Retain Existing Ships and Members.
•Recruit New Adult Leaders.
•Communications.
Telling how the future is heading for our younger sailors.
 
#74 · (Edited)
...The life of hanging out on 30+ year old sailboats that means 'work' just doesn't appeal to younger crowds... I can't get my son interested at all in the sailboat anymore... at first he liked sailing with us but lost interest doing other more interesting (to him) adventures with his friends. The idea of sailing with 53 year old mom and 60 year old dad just wasn't in the cards for him... he'd rather be with his friends gaming/hanging out... even though we introduced him at an early age sailing/boating with us. Same with my daughter... just not interested at all... sad but this is the plight of our sailing future...
I think this is more of a generational thing than something new.

I felt the exact same way your son does and my father could have written the above back in the late 60's and early 70's. Of course now that I'm 61 and coming back to sailing, I sure wish I would have taken all those lost opportunities of not only sailing but the time I could have spent with my Dad.
 
#38 ·
I agree with the poster who said that the type of sailing that is affordable is not being promoted. Even learning to sail has become a very expensive proposition. In my area a basic keelboat class runs $700. If you want to take the whole series of classes you can expect to rack up a bill in the $thousands$.

When we first start sailing there were sailing clubs around where you could go and take a Red Cross basic sailing class on little daysailers (we learned on Lido and Capri 14s) for very little money. In our case with a nominal fee to join the club we also had use of those boats either free or for a very nominal daily fee. It was affordable for most anybody and you really learned how to sail in a boat that was going to quickly deposit your butt in the drink if you didn't do it right. No engines, so we learned to sail them onto and off of the dock, and do everything else under sail. It was a wonderful time and we really learned the nuances of wind and sail.

I'll bet a lot of the older folks out there sailing now learned on Optimists, Sunfish, El Toros, or other sailing dinghys, and they probably had their own boats and the freedom to go out piddling around in it alone and figure it all out. They learned very young what an adventure conquering the wind in your own boat could be. Parents today and in the recent past are reluctant to turn their kids loose alone in their own front yard, let alone in a small boat.

Now people either take the ASAs at considerable cost, learning on keelboats with engines (and probably couldn't conceive of doing it on anything else) or their idea of the way to investigate whether they might like sailing is to go to the BVI and charter with a hired captain to show them what to do. Good grief, no wonder people have come to view it as a rich man's sport and think they need a fortune to get into it.

The financing situation makes it difficult too. Banks will no longer finance a sailboat that is over 20 years old even though there are plenty of boats out there much older than that that are still very fine and capable boats, until they aren't. I am convinced, because we have been in this situation, that if you could finance these older boats there would be a lot less derelicts around. An older 30-35' boat in really good condition is going to cost at least $25K, likely much more if it is well maintained and equipped, but for the average young person coming up with $25K+ is darned near impossible. But coming up with a couple hundred a month for a boat payment would be do-able. So you've got a really nice older (over 20 years) 35' boat and you put it up for sale because you can no longer use it, have health issues, inherited it, whatever the case, and it doesn't sell because no one comes along that has cash for it and it's not eligible for financing. It sits, it deteriorates. The owner has lost interest, or maybe whatever condition is compelling him to sell is also preventing him from using and maintaining the boat. But it can't pass into the hands of someone who could use it because those young people who might want to have that nice old boat as a family boat (because they sure can't afford a new one at $150K+ for the average 30 footer) don't have the funds to pay cash and can't get a loan. The boat is pretty much doomed at that point, and even if it started out in good condition it will become a derelict in short order. If only boat lending was based strictly on boat condition, equipment, and survey value rather than on age....

We were in this situation a couple of times. We had found a couple of 25+ year old solidly built, immaculate, and wonderfully maintained older boats, world cruiser type boats, that passed surveys with flying colors, but could find no one willing to finance them. So, we ended up doing what we always seem to do....finding one that was in such a state of neglect that we could pay cash for it and fixing it up on a "as funds become available" basis.

No doubt at least some of those old boats sat long enough that they became sad victims of neglect instead of the beautiful and functional boats they were when we looked at them, simply because the means and money to buy them were not available to the people who would have put them to good use.

To me those are some of the reasons more young people are not getting into the sport.
 
#43 ·
The financing situation makes it difficult too. Banks will no longer finance a sailboat that is over 20 years old even though there are plenty of boats out there much older than that that are still very fine and capable boats, until they aren't.
Shhh... Don't tell my bank that I just financed a 35 year old boat, using a boat loan (not an "unsecured" loan).

Oh wait...they already know. :rolleyes:
 
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