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Danger of Vibrio Infection

5K views 46 replies 19 participants last post by  OldEagle 
#1 ·
#2 · (Edited)
Excellent posting and VERY pertinent for the 'upper' Chesapeake and Delaware Bays.

"Vibrio" and mycobacteria infections are the reason that one SHOULD NOT be scraping the 'crud' and barnacles by hand when your boat is in the water of these bays, especially in the northern sections of these bays. So, instead of 'diving' to clean your boat bottom in these places, consider to use a 'scraper' or stiff brush on a long extension pole and scrub your bottom from your dinghy. The use of a stainless steel armored glove(s) to prevent scratches and wounds should be considered, especially when removing barnacles.

Vibrio is also found in the 'fuzzy-head' gnats that emerge from the bottom muck in the spring, especially during the massive emergence/'hatch' of the 'fuzzy-heads' during the long dark nights of the 'new moon' from late April through June. The 'nasty green goop' that they leave behind on your gelcoat when they 'change' to their adult form, .... on the sails and sail covers, topsides, gelcoat, and every square inch of boat surface above the water, also contains vibrio.
Now you know why the 'watermen' of these bays wear thick waterproof pants, and 'woven wire armored' gloves, etc.
The mycobacteria infections, although less pathogenically severe, take about two++ weeks to heal ... and if you are infected when diving/swimming, your entire body will look like a severe and hurtful ivy/oak poison rash. Got the damn tee-shirt, and should have 'showered' with a dilute solution of 'clorox' after 'diving'.

Rx: dont 'dive' to clean your hull bottom in the northern parts of these bays; short-haul the boat, and then use scrapers and stiff brushes ...... affixed to long poles. Thoroughly sanitize all your exposed skin when finished.

hope this helps .... as you definitely don't want to be the owner of such a Tee-shirt.

;-)
 
#3 · (Edited)
professional article about Vibrio vulnificus:

Vibrio Infections: Background, Pathophysiology, Epidemiology

FTA:"V. vulnificus lives in areas where the temperature exceeds 18°C. In the United States, it is found in the coastal waters of the Gulf of Mexico, New England, and the northern Pacific. Low-to-moderate salinity (15-25 parts per thousand) provides the most favorable growing condition for V. vulnificus, and, conversely, high salinity (>25 parts per thousand) adversely affects its survival. Similar to the effect of high salinity, low seawater temperature (< 10°C) significantly inhibits the growth of V. vulnificus. V. vulnificus is ingested by filter-feeding mollusks such as oysters, mussels, clams, and scallops. During the warmer months, the concentration of bacteria can be as high as 1 X 106 bacteria per gram of oyster.[8]"
 
#7 ·
Anyplace thats principally 'brackish'. Generally, 'above' a line from Tolchester across to Middle River. .... anyplace where 'fuzzy-head' gnats are common.

Additionally, the prevailing winds on Upper Ches have been 'westerly' since early June .... and not much 'mixing' of the saltwater coming 'up' along the bottom, and lots of stagnant fresh water coming down the Susquehanna on top - major 'stratification' going on.
Cleaned boat bottoms will totally foul in about 3 weeks, especially in the feeder creeks and rivers. Once the fouling begins, barnacles will readily attach and no matter what the type of bottom paint; the slime apparently blinds off the anti-fouling.
Since Irgarol/"Bio-Lux" additives to bottom paint are now unavailable .... a 'mess' for boat bottoms.

The good thing is that the deadly cyano-bacteria & algae blooms and 'red/mahogany tides' are absent, .... at least for now.

Pray for some strong southerlies to mix up the 'stratified' upper bay, so we don't wind up with 'yet another' massive die-off of the migratory water-fowl in autumn.
 
#8 ·
Interesting.
We've had dolphins in the West/Rhode/South rivers for nearly two weeks. I know that they have some tolerance for fresh water but figured if the water were really brackish that they wouldn't hang around so long.

I agree that the southerlies haven't been very strong this year.
 
#9 ·
I thought I was seeing things when I spotted several near Chesapeake Beach last week... until my daughter confirmed.

---

Or just sail down the Bay a ways and clean there. However, if there is hard growth it is time to repaint anyway.
 
#10 ·
When I was in training published the results of an autopsy of a man who died of mycobacterial meningitis with scattered brain abscesses with the bug a species seen previously commonly only in turtles. Question arose if he was infected from his porcine heart valve or transcutaneously from an open wound as he had contact with sea, brackist, and pond water. His valve(s) appeared sterile nor did his blood cultures become positive. However after contacting the valve supplier question was raised.
People don't often realize the bioquoent of the soup coastal waters are. The case referenced is particularly unfortunate. Prompt debridment and appropriate antibiotics might have been lifesaving.
In the presence of a recent open wound would restrict activities. If scabbed and dressed with oil based triple antibiotic first applied risk might be lowered.
We carry at least one agent in each major class of antibiotics in our med kit. Those of us who cruise may wish to consult with their PCPs to review what agents maybe appropriate for them to carry.
If you want to read about something really scary Google naegleria. Swim up your nose, get into your brain, get amebic meningoencephalis, gonzo.
 
#13 ·
None of these pathogens are new. F.ex., usually when people get sick from eating oysters, it's Vibrio. Like E.coli: lives in your body, but when you ingest it to another part of your body, wham!

So don't freak out, the bugs have always been there. Try not to get scratched, but if you do, just be sure to clean it out.
 
#16 ·
Lots of nasty things out there. Be careful and treat minor injuries as quickly as possible including cleaning and protecting from further exposure.

A brown recluse spider in a flaked sail gave me a bite last summer that took almost a year to fully heal.

Scraped knuckles from barnacles a few years ago took several weeks to heal.
 
#17 ·
I'm on second week of three weeks of doxycycline for Lyme. This time caught real early as had classic rash so feel fine now.( p.s. - There's no such thing as chronic Lyme).

GI vibrio is not a biggy but in your fascia or if septic with it very nasty.

Yup- have fun while the sun shines. Don't worry be happy and.......

GO SAILING .:2 boat:

Nothing to catch but fish if you're out of sight of land and very few of those once it's deep enough.
 
#22 ·
Most of you already know my feelings about Chesapeake Bay water quality, which in my lifetime, has only worsened. Many years ago, I worked with James Price, a fisheries scientist who blew the whistle on mycobacterial infections in striped bass, and that those infections originated in that species while they resided in Chesapeake Bay. In humans, mycobacterial infections, if left untreated, are usually fatal. Well, fish, oysters, and other creatures residing in the bay cannot be medically treated, so those that are infected all die. At the time of the study, nearly 80 percent of striped bass had mycobacterial infections to one degree or another. Somewhere in my photo archives I have dozens of photos of striped bass (rockfish) with lesions or sores all over their bodies. And, even some that did not have sores, still had the infections, which was determined by necropsy when we examined their speens, which were mottled and spotted. Now, in order to kill the bacteria, you would have to nearly incinerate the fish when cooking to get the internal temperature of the fillet to a temperature that will be effective, which was also part of the study.

Ironically, last weekend, while sailing south past Battery Island, there were an estimated 200 boats anchored in the shallows adjacent to the island, and likely 600 people frolicking in the shallow, nasty looking, greenish brown waters. Same was true at the Spoils Island directly across the Havre de Grace Channel from Battery Island. And, at the top end of Susquehanna Flats, in front of the Perry Point VA Hospital, another 100 boats were anchored in the shallows, where folks were swimming. In this same area, are 6 sewage treatment plants, most of which are somewhat outdated and overloaded in their treatment capacities. These folks are frolicking in the confluence of the wastewater treatment plants of Perryville, the VA Hospital, Havre de Grace, Aberdeen Proving Grounds, North East and Charlestown. Fortunately, there is an enormous volume of aquatic vegetation in the same area, which absorbs a huge volume of the discharged nutrients.

Personally, I would not swim in the waters of Chesapeake Bay or the mid Atlantic coastal waters, which the EPA claimed are "unsuitable for human, recreational contact." A statement they made at a press conference I attended nearly 20 years ago, so one can only wonder how much worse those waters must be at this point. For the same reason, I do not eat raw oysters and clams caught in Chesapeake Bay, however I have recently consumed farm raised oysters raised in Virginia's coastal waters, which were very tasty.

Now, at age 75 (nearly 76), I'm already skating in thin ice. Like most individuals my age, my immune system is a bit compromised, I take just a few medications, though, but I know when I cut myself, it doesn't heal like it did when I was 25. Minor cuts now take weeks to heal. Therefore, for all you somewhat older codgers, those over 45 years of age, I would take some precautions when sailing in what retired Maryland DNR fisheries scientist Ben Florence claimed is the second filthiest estuary in the world, Chesapeake Bay. Keep a bottle of chlorine bleach on the boat at all times. A little bleach water goes a long way in sterilizing minor cuts and scrapes, and great for wiping down counter tops and any other food preparation areas. It's not a 100 percent cure all, but it really does a fantastic job of killing all forms of bacteria. I know of several recreational anglers that rinse their fish fillets in bleach water and then again in fresh water before cooking. A capful of bleach per gallon of water is more than sufficient to kill these pathogens.

In the years I worked in the field of medicine, I only saw three cases of mycobacterial infections, which was over a 15 year period. All three were really nasty, all three had a connection to Chesapeake Bay, and all three were treated with huge doses of antibiotics and survived. Since I left the field in 1975, the number of reported cases with Chesapeake Bay connections has skyrocketed to several cases per year. Personally, I don't intend to be among those statistics, and you won't find me jumping overboard to cool off on a hot summer day - my boat has a nice, freshwater shower that I utilize for that.

I also recommend keeping an antibacterial soap onboard for cleaning minor cuts and abrasions. I used to use Betadine Surgical Scrub, which is nothing more than soap and iodine, but I'm not able to find it locally these days, so I switched to phisohex, which is another surgical scrub soap that is nearly as effective. And, I have a couple fully stocked first aid kits, which rarely get used, and I hope they never need to be.

Thanks for thinking of me, Donna, and I hope you and John are enjoying your anniversary sail,

Gary :cool:
 
#28 · (Edited)
..., I would take some precautions when sailing in what retired Maryland DNR fisheries scientist Ben Florence claimed is the second filthiest estuary in the world, Chesapeake Bay.

Gary
And to think that there have been a number of politicians lately claiming that they would do away with the Environmental Protection Agency. Many of them are young enough that they probably don't remember the times when we had massive amounts of dead fish floating up on the shores of the Great Lakes, when the Cuyahoga River in Ohio caught on fire from all the petrochemicals floating on the surface, and the photos from the sixties of Los Angeles, New York and Denver where visibility from the smog was reduced to less than a half a mile.

This is what I'm old enough to remember, but you know what they say about history, "Those who fail to remember it are destined to relive it".

http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/58#.V5UAdXNOnqA

"Lake Erie
By Michael Rotman
By the 1960s, Lake Erie had become extremely polluted, in part due to the heavy industry that lined its shores in Cleveland and other cities. Factories dumped pollutants into the lake and the waterways that flowed into it (like the Cuyahoga River) without much government oversight. Waste from city sewers made its way into the lake too, as did fertilizer and pesticides from agricultural runoff.

As a result of these pollutants, Lake Erie contained increased levels of phosphorus and nitrogen, which contributed to eutrophication - a process that encourages the development of algal blooms. Dead fish littered the shoreline as a lack of oxygen in the water led to massive fish kills. Episodes like this led to the coining of the phrase - more sensational than factual - "Lake Erie is dead," which started to appear in national publications in the late 1960s.

In 1969, the Cuyahoga River caught fire, bringing more negative national publicity to Cleveland and its polluted waterways. Even though pollution in Lake Erie was a regional problem, Cleveland bore the brunt of the negative publicity.

The burning river and the "dead" lake were major impetuses for the Federal government to step in and deal with water pollution in Cleveland and across the nation. In 1972, Congress passed the Clean Water Act, a measure that tightened regulations on industrial dumping. That same year, the United States and Canada signed the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement in an attempt to lower the amount of pollutants entering the Great Lakes.

Locally, the city took steps to improve its sewer system and better monitor water quality. Mayor Carl Stokes led the way, pledging to clean up Cleveland's waterways. He appeared before Congress (and his brother, United States Representative Louis Stokes) in 1970 to discuss the issue and seek federal aid. Carl's involvement brought significant media attention to the problem and contributed to the national movement against water pollution."


There are some great photos in the original article. I remember seeing those in the news as well. Thanks to a number of efforts that various presidents and Congress have done to weaken the enforcement arm of the EPA and the Clean Water Act, we have lost some ground in this area. I would hate to see us return to the way it was in the 1960's.
 
#24 ·
Gary is right about the correct first aid kit and procedures

It is amazing that people are so concerned about external bacteria but talk about it while eating rare ground beef burgers with potential E. coli implications or don't use cook to temperature considerations when using chicken which is loaded with salononella. One wrong oyster can give you Heptitis. Proper Food handling on your boat is even more important than going swimming especially those with compromised immunities or little children. How many use cutting boards with gashes in them. I proper to use a quaternary solution for sanitizing rather than bleach , although we do use chlorox wipes a lot on the boat.

Occasionally we take a dip in the Chessie, but are very cognizant of the areas we do it in. And it's rare. No open cuts either.
 
#26 ·
Gary think you need to stress mycobacterii are ubiquitous in both water and soil. Similarly infections by these microbes are seen in virtually all species including ourselves. Due to cell wall structure and DNA contruct they are particularly resistant to antimicrobials as it in some ways similar to our own. Prolonged treatment with triple therapy is nearly the norm for tb. Due to protected spaces such as cns this is a particular issue the ID folks and neurologists such as I was. However, unlike the case the OP sited the majority of damage done to the host is from the hosts own immune response to the infection agent not the microbe itself. Unlike the case orginally sited infection is clinical indolent until far along.
For the cruiser I don't think these bugs are cause of much concern. In a healthy host with some modicum of common sense risk of infection is low. Rate of disease is generally slow in early phases allowing Dx. by astute diagnostician. Treatment is prolonged hence onerous. Vibrio outside the gut is unusual. This may delay Dx. Although sensitive to simple Rx. such as doxycycline if Dx. delayed morbidity and even mortality significant. A different kettle of cod.
 
#27 ·
Outbound, you are correct in your observations. When I was still working in medicine, I had the opportunity to work in some of Baltimore's major TB sanatoriums, the largest, Mount Wilson Hospital, located in Pikesville, just outside the Baltimore City line. At the time, Baltimore had the highest TB rate in the nation - it was scary, but I leaned a lot about the disease and how to treat it. All of those hospitals have now been closed for years, and TB is now treated primarily on an outpatient basis here.

When I first saw the horrible infections in the Chesapeake's striped bass, and learned the disease entity, it scared me just as much as that first day I walked into Mount Wilson Hospital wearing a hazmat outfit. Especially when I considered that I spent much of my life fishing the waters of Chesapeake Bay and handing those species with my bare hands, often getting stabbed with a dorsal fin or having a finger sliced with a gill plate. Later, when I was writing for various outdoor publications, I interviewed dozens of individuals that had contracted mycobeterial infections from handling fish, crabs and oysters caught from the waters of the bay, mainly commercial and charter fishermen, individuals that were considered high risk because of their professions. Some were treated for periods of years before the problem was resolved, while others seemed to respond to the triple whammy therapy much faster. All experienced a lot of pain at the infection site, and some lost a lot of tissue in the process.

My advice to anyone is simple - use common sense and be very cautious. i would not wish this disease on my worst enemy - it's that bad!

Gary :cool:
 
#29 ·
Gary-
FWIW there has been a concerted effort to push Betadine and all the other "red iodine" washes off the shelves for probably 20 years now. The stated cause is simply because of the red iodine, which then stains the skin red, hiding the red color which betrays the first signs of an infection.
So, wash with Betadine, or paint with red iodine, and you can't tell if the patient has the start of an infection. (OK, a professional can still tell--but not as easily.) Wash with many other equally effective things, or use "white iodine", and it is that much easier to see the early sighs of an infection.
That's what they've told me and for all I know it could be a clever lie by the Phisohex Pholks.

Also, there's been an effort to get rid of iodine and hydrogen peroxide both as "wound washes" because both can kill all tissue, everything, not just pathogens. Which ensures that there will be fresh dead tissue in a wound site, making a great dinner buffet for infectious organisms. For the deep gashes that simply must be sterilized, yes. But for accessible stuff, no more. And oddly enough it is only in the last two years that I've seen "gentler" wound washes sold in the stores, by J&J and other consumer companies. (Antibacterials that in theory don't destroy any human tissue.)

I wonder if rinsing down with a gallon of (salted?) cheap white vinegar (before the fresh water) might not be a good idea in questionable waters, to discourage bacterial growth?
 
#31 ·
I wonder if rinsing down with a gallon of (salted?) cheap white vinegar (before the fresh water) might not be a good idea in questionable waters, to discourage bacterial growth?
Simple old-fashioned 'bar' soap and water will do; ... real soap that's made from an 'alkali'.
The reduction of the bacterial 'count' is exponential as the 'alkali' component begins to dissolve and 'split' (lyse) the cell walls of most bacteria species.
Just take your time when washing with old-fashioned soap and water, so the alkali can do its job of 'liquefaction', and the rest of the 'soap' components can act as a surfactant which loosens the bacterial, etc. cells, etc. from your skin.

Vinegar? (Natural) vinegar is product of bacterial fermentation. You really need 'industrial strength' vinegar (and perhaps mixed with some hydrogen peroxide) to do a substantial broad spectrum 'kill' of bacteria. So, if you must - wash first, and then use the vinegar, .... and perhaps then add a bit of olive oil, garlic, salt, basil, feta cheese and then some sourdough croutons. ;-)
 
#30 ·
Living in Asia you see or hear about stuff. A Canadian in Penang just lost his leg but survived and Dutch Wilf succumbed to topic shock on Koh Jum .I used betadine often .(locally made and strrong) for every puncture,cut or motorcycle accident and only once had to resort to the anti bios I pack. Luckily successful. Even the dogs here in Nanaimo are coming down with some unfamiliar staph and we had to culture it to find a pill that worked. Apparently we people can share it so a bit of concern.
 
#32 ·
Yup KISS remains good advice.

Simple soap and water. Most important is to let bleed a bit and remove/lavage out any foreign bodies.
Completely dry.
If scab not likely to be abraded or immersed in non sterile settings Sunlight (uv) may benefit.
If risk of re injury or immersion triple antibiotic and sterile dressing.

We carry suture sets and butterflies but on a boat think it probably better for most things to heal by secondary intention if small enough and not concerned about cosmetic result.


Rich curious about your background. You seem to make grounded sensible posts.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Rich curious about your background. You seem to make grounded sensible posts.
Among other things, worked allied to bio-pharma within high-tech membrane technology, Mech/Chem/Nuclear Engrng., P-Chem/particles -- 'alive' and inorganic .... and all the hardware that 'contains' them, plus, a few instructorships; ... and, a healthy (avocational) tenured dose of pre-hospital EMS/paramedic clinical/'street' as an educator, etc. Kind of an educational poly-math 'hippocampus', of sorts.
Was just lucky to be in the wrong place and at the most inopportune times .... all 'start-ups' and newly emerging tech.
HAHA, I only sleep ~4-5 hrs./day, the rest of the time voraciously addicted to (still, after retirement) studying/reading ......... and making $$$, etc.

As regards microorganisms, my history sense tells me that just about ALL the major changes and upheavals of pre & historical societies throughout all time were probably due in part to plagues, pandemics, etc.; and fairly 'cyclical', too.
Lets just see what happens with evolutionary acquired drug resistances with the present 'bugs'; VERY serious stuff huh? ;-)

regards
RichH
 
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