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Banned

22K views 160 replies 59 participants last post by  Jeff_H 
#1 ·
Recently a member of this group was banned, for the second time and seemingly forever. I'm just curious how others feel about this action by the moderators. The particulars in this case revolve around the question of using a MFD chart plotter vs a couple of iPads running chart plotter apps. The banned member offered up his experiences with iPads and iPhones and compared them with previous experiences with MFDs. Several other members, three in particular, voiced their preference for MFDs. Vigorously, I might add, citing specific deficiencies for the iPad approach; visibility, reliability and serviceability. In the tit-for-tat that followed the banned member countered each objection with factual personal experience and plenty of "documentation" to support his case. The tit-for-tat ended with some pretty severe criticism of the banned members person, very specific and very demeaning, and I believe, inappropriate. It is also interesting to note that some other members offered up their experiences and observations in support of the iPad approach.
To me, it is pretty clear that the the iPad vs MFD approaches are going in the same direction. The biggest difference being MFDs are very expensive and use proprietary charting information, while iPads are very affordable and can use no cost charting information.
But that is not the issue. The issue is; are you comfortable with the moderators banning (for life?) a member who aggressively pursues his argument? Since an argument is a two way street (in this case and 3:1 street) don't you think the banishment was a little lopsided?
I will be interested to read your take on this issue of banishment.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
As someone who was banned recently on their first warning for a month (3 warnings are supposedly necessary for a month ban) on another site, I'm well aware than those in power can abuse that power. I was banned for an overly harsh post, meant to be a very forceful statement that everyone should at the very least understand the rules of operating a boat before actually leaving the dock. It has completely destroyed any enjoyment that site brought me helping others and I no longer participate nearly as much as I did.
I have no idea of this case and therefore cannot give a specific opinion, but generally I think sending a supposed adult to the corner for an infraction is overstepping a moderator's authority. Perhaps a better way would be a private discussion between the member and the moderator about the infraction and if possible, a private resolution without treating someone like a child.
I will say that I left CF many years ago because so many members there use personal attacks instead of a well thought out discussion of the subject of a post. I believe this is because they don't have enough knowledge to actually discuss the subject intelligently.
 

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#14 · (Edited)
Definitely NOT COOL! I give the two mods that I posted to a REP of ZERO. One was a PM from Donna, and the other was open questions to TDW, who was unwilling to comment on my questions. Ralph
One or two bannings (I don't know who the other was) is a start. So, point blank, I'll ask if you believe the smack ban was necessary? Yes or no? Is it good for sailnet? If so, what is your reasoning? I'll leave it at that. Ralph
Apologies .... not that I was unwilling, more that I didn't notice said question.

Necessary ? No ban is absolutely necessary so no it was not. It was however a course we chose to take.

Good for SailNet ? Debatable. Impossible to tell at this juncture. Perhaps time will tell.
 
#4 ·
I think the moderators have a tough job and they do it well here at SailNet. I've never seen any sign of abuse of power. ccrider's post caused me to go look at the thread in question and I see no abuse of power there. Obviously the mods have used their power in this case, but that is their job.
 
#5 ·
Has Smacky been banned? I read that entire thread and did not feel there was anything there worth banning anyone over . . . . Please . . This isn't Sunday school . . .I've been here about 8 years now and am well aware of Smackys demeanor and tenacity, that's who he is . . all in all he is a net positive in my opinion . . .I'll miss his posts, hope he comes back . .
 
#6 ·
I just joined this site after putting up with CF for years. I find both the mods and members on this forum to be WAY more cool.

People that have spent time over their know there is a core group of "cruisers", mostly American Expats living south of the equator who are rich and very very conservative and appear in nearly every thread spreading their wisdom. The problem isn't just that the core members are a bunch of bullies, their belief that they are always right is made worse by the fact the moderators consistently back them up.

This doesn't seem to be the case on this forum. So, although I value free speech, I can say this forum is run much better than the competition.
 
#7 ·
I've moderated a number of lists and forums over the years, and in all that time only found it necessary to remove one person. It is an extreme measure for an extreme situation. Most successful forums, like most communities, are largely self-moderated. A heavy police hand is usually self-defeating. That said, there are people who simply don't get it, and need to be smacked in the head with a 2x4.

I don't know the details here, so can't say how justified it might be. I just know it is not an action that should be taken lightly.

From what I've seen, I do think the moderators here do a pretty good job. It's a pretty thankless task, and quite frankly, I'm not sure why anyone volunteers, so I cut them a lot of slack. But a permanent ban is as harsh a penalty there is. I hope it is justified...
 
#10 ·
Didn't read the thread but the mods here are extremely thoughtful and reasonable. I know one of them personally and I wouldn't presume to second guess them. I know they discuss problem posts amongst themselves before any action is taken and that only after warnings except in extreme situations.

If a moderated forum offends your sensibilities might I suggest SA?

P.S. Who got the vacation?
 
#12 · (Edited)
A few quick points ....

Smack was not banned simply because of that thread.

RTB .... where did I refuse to comment on your questions ? (edit ... see later post)

Parole and/or reduced sentence is not completely out of the question.

I agree with RTB .... Smack was not IMHO, a Troll.
 
#17 · (Edited)
A few quick points ....

Smack was not banned simply because of that thread.

RTB .... where did I refuse to comment on your questions ? (edit ... see later post)

Parole and/or reduced sentence is not completely out of the question.

I agree with RTB .... Smack was not IMHO, a Troll.
I beg to differ. He was a troll and, worse, he was a bully. He loved to hear himself talk and argue, always pontificating how he was the only one who knew the 'facts.' Dismissing the experience of others, hundreds of times more experienced and knowledgeable. Drowning the forum with a barrage of repetitive drivel.

As someone noted, he very quickly mutated from someone who confessed he was a bloody beginner to a self-declared expert on all things sailing. All based on _one_ off-shore race he was a crew on, and some local cruising. And lots of copy-and-pasted pictures.

I sincerely thank the moderators for FINALLY throwing him out. If you want to be among the grown-ups, behave like it, or after too much child-like behavior you will be shown the door. I only came back to Sailnet when I saw he had been banned. I have better things to do than to read the drivel of some ignorant person who is overly impressed with himself.
 
#15 ·
I was on Smack's side on a lot of threads, but still thought he was too far "out there" sometimes.

In my defense I don't have much respect for any forum that allows me to be a member.
 
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#45 ·
I am very surprised the Mods have banned Smack. He is like a bit of the furniture here.
:laugherDamn... I wish I had said that!

Sorry to learn about Smack. He usually knows when he is dancin' close to the edge, and usually steps back before he goes over. I hope that it is temporary, AND that if he comes back he tones it down a bit. However, he does sometimes behave like a dog with a bone (Waterway Guide beats Active Captain as one example), and simply won't let a discussion drop, long past when he should have.

Eventually debates simply degrade into disparagment or contradiction. Before that point is reached, continuing the discussion becomes pointless. I have used the "ignore user" feature to keep me from going down this path on many occasion.

That said; I also believe that the mods have a thankless job, and they do their best to see that a level of decorum is maintained on the site. Some people seem to forget that we are all guests on the site, and we should behave accordingly. Think of it as a party to which we've all been allowed to crash; act as guests, or get thrown out. I know that the mods don't wield the ban-stick without a complaint, or reason, or debate amongst themselves. In every case when they have done so in the past (Bwalker42, Guiletta, and a bunch more) I have 100% agreed with them.
 
#18 ·
Smack is a good sailor, class act, and a totally cool cat who always brought life and humor to this site, as well as lots of practical wisdom and experience. Banning him is just not smart. Maybe he had a bad day or a bad week. Considering his overall contribution to this site, WTF were you mods thinking?
 
#19 · (Edited)
Smack can be obnoxious... not enough to be removed. Of course he could have toned it down a bit but in the aforementioned thread... he provided sound information. Lifetime ban seems too extreme.

More respect is a good thing... and we need more of it.

I don't know his experience... I do know some member have tons of experience and have been at this for decades and scores of thousands of miles. Opinions are just that... no one on a forum is the arbiter or truth or facts. But sure... professionals, navel architects, engineers and so forth probably should be listened to a bit more carefully.
 
#20 ·
Smackdaddy was sometimes more confrontational than I was comfortable with, but I always looked forward to the threads he started, and those he participated in. He wrote about interesting topics, and he always supported his opinion with facts or personal observations. And with the exceptions of when he let the snark overtake him (yes, he could be mean), he was a highly entertaining writer. It took a thick skin to argue with him, but it seemed to me that those who took his sometimes overblown prose with a grain of salt would come away unscathed. Obviously, not everyone agreed with him, but that doesn't mean he was dangerous, bad or even wrong. If you didn't mind that he always had to have the last word (no matter how much you disagreed), there was no problem. I think it was only those who couldn't let a Smack down go unanswered that got angry.

Having said that, I don't want to second guess the mods for their actions. They've been models of restraint here; witness the infamous Steel Boats/Brent Swain/Bob Perry/Smackdaddy steel cage death match that went on forever with only occasional pokes by the Mods to tone it down. But I looked at that Ipad thread, and for the life of me, I can't see why that in and of itself lead to a lifetime ban. It wasn't nearly as vicious as the Swainfest. The only thing I can think of is that a few members had finally had their fill of Smack, overreacted to what was a relatively minor kerfuffle, really blew up, causing the Mods to realize they too had had enough, and to issue the ban. I'm not saying that their actions weren't reasonable, just that I disagree (respectfully), and wish it hadn't come to this.
 
#23 ·
Having been banned once here for 1 month I feel somewhat uniquely qualified to weigh in. While I have at times vehemently disagreed with the moderators I do believe as a group they are fair. I beleive they make their decisions as a group after much discussion. I think they are well though out and measured .

In order to allow normal disagreements between people there has to be respect and some sembelence of civility. After all the goal is to engage other sailors and not deter people from posting or asking questions or having opinions for fear of ridicule.

This is where Smacky crossed the line. He often singled certain others out here and followed you from topic to topic not just arguing with you, but demeaning and insulting you. I was one of those singled out by him. However I was not alone as we saw in this thread. I did not ask the moderators to ban him, but I applaud them for stepping up to this bully. Some may see this as OK and you should be able to take the personal ridicule, but when it's directed at so many as to deter people from commenting, I guess that's where they drew their line. He never intimidated me, but I chose or tried to avoid threads where he was involved

In terms of his knowledge, I found some of his posts interesting but rarely was it information I couldn't find after google searching myself on the Internet. I assume others who post can do that already. The difference in listening and following advice for me is I look for personal experience, not cut and paste Internet ads. Coming accross as an authority without the experience may cost others to unwisely spend money.

Ridiculing Auspicious on his knowledge which he is a subject expert in ( electronics or delivering boats) the way he did was plain rude and disrespectful. Although it provided amusement to some , it really was unnecessary. He did not know how to stick to his points without the personal demeaning comments or antagonism.

Lastly, this is not his first rodeo or site he has been banned from. Maybe there is a pattern here. Lifetime ban is up to the mods. But if he returns he should be on a very short leash. The first sign of disrespect should be the last.

I applaud their actions.
 
#24 ·
Can someone direct me to the thread in question?
 
#26 ·
My experience in life illustrates tome that we are devolving from independent adults to diaper wearing babies when it comes to our feelings. Insecurity is running amok in our world today and people with no self confidence do not wish to defend their closely held beliefs because they fear that the truth will illustrate the fraudulence of these beliefs. Thus, we have heavily moderated websites that ban comments that they deem to be political, religious, or personal attacks because they do not wish to have some "offended" person being critical of them. Add to that the basic human character flaw of wanting to be the big frog no matter how small the pond and you have a largely variable highly selective ability to be important in your own world. I lean towards allowing factual comments to be posted whether someone's finer sensibilities are offended or not. If an individual is truly a bully or a boor most intelligent participants will ostracize the individual involved as a troll and the offender will disappear. It only takes a bit of a tough skin....
 
#28 ·
I've always thought you should wear your big boy pants if you are going to post in the midst of an argument. If you are easily offended by personal attacks, then just read and enjoy the show. Also, you can ask questions without joining the debate. Many do.

a. You don't need to respond.
b. Many times I have deleted something hastily written within moments of posting it. Arguments are seldom worth it.
c. Never swing at a pitch in the dirt. If someone says something that is personal an illogical (they tend to go together) leave it alone.
d. Always think about why you are posting. To convince an argumentative person? You will fail. To inform others? OK, but avoid discussing the attack. To inform yourself? Good on you!
e. If you think someone is all wrong, ask them to explain. MAny they are right. Maybe you misunderstood. Maybe they will offer a terrible explaination and discredi themselves. Often, they simply go away. All of these outcomes are better than an argument.

Just like e-mail, only worse. forums are an incomplete communication, and yeah, we should try to be more polite than we need to be. A good reminder to myself!

Banning? I don't really have an opinion.
 
#30 ·
Most if not all bans of active members, so we are disregarding outright Trolls and Spammers here, are as a result of cummulative sins. It is very rare indeed that anyone gets banned for a single incident.

The other person who managed to get the boot this year was in fact BrentSwain. Sure it all came to a head in one particular thread but the carbuncle was seeking a lance long before that.
 
#34 ·
the carbuncle was seeking a lance long before that.
Reminds me of Peter Ustinov's greasy little hustler role in Topkapi. When he was a child his father had told him he was "Nothing but a carbuncle on the backside of humanity".

A very apropos comment on B.S. actually. :wink
 
#32 · (Edited)
Sheesh, I'm gonna have to read SA to get my dose of smack? Signal/Noise is kinda lousy on SA.

His ban from CF was totally unfounded (IMHO)
His contribution here was really good, if abrasive. (look at the post counts on his threads)
He often pointed out the silliness of being the "internet expert" on all things; mocking that by being the internet expert of all things. I found that very meta and funny as all get out. Lots of folks found it mean.

That said, forum moderation is a thankless job. It's their sandbox, they can kick out whoever they want.
 
#33 ·
I believe the moderators were patient for a long time. On many threads, many times, there were posted advisements to keep the comments civil. Both Smack and Brent went into name calling and belittling rants. They liked to argue. There were times when I was interested in a thread, but felt like I had to wade through childish behavior to get to the adult discussion. Sometimes people say the damnedest things on the internet. Perhaps they feel there are no consequences. But there are. I don't know why a lifetime ban was used instead of a time out, but I figure that I will trust the moderators in that decision.
 
#37 ·
Awww. You guys really banned Smack? Sheesh. I am never here anymore. I liked the old chat and I was never much for the protracted discord that makes for interesting forum posts. The forums and listserves are dying because of Fakin facebook. But banning Smack? Smack was an idiot and occasionally an ass but he was never more than that. Did y'all have a bad day? Seriously. Did you? There were some jackasses of a different stripe (outsized egos) who were trying to get SD banned for years . . . I hope that wasn't the reason.
Small ponds small fish. :/ BS
 
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