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  #31  
Old 12-15-2006
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camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
Sailaway...that pencil analogy is great in a perfect world where all countries let the market operate. It doesn't work so well when I want to buy a Florida orange in Japan at ANY price and find I can't because it turns out that there are Japanese orange growers who don't want their work to be outsourced to America!!

Pam..."that makes it a dictatorship of sorts" is not how I would classify the Chinese government. We are digging our own grave with them. About 10 years ago when I was in the electronics business NOTHING was being produced in Red China. The good stuff came from Japan and Malaysia, Korea and Taiwan made plenty of cheap stuff and no one complained about prices in electronics going up!! We did not HAVE to let China in on the action...our enlightened leaders and big biz CHOSE to and we could choose not to again and still enjoy our big screens without supporting slave labor...but I'm not holding my breath!
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Here is an interesting debate between a couple of smart guys regarding the growth of capitalism under an authoritarian regime in China:

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/a...ls.php?id=8174

They spend more effort than you might expect calling each other names, but there are some cogent points regarding the need (or lack thereof) for Western Civ values in a successful capitalist economy.
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  #33  
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Great discusion about the cost of goods from over seas, what I cannt seem to understand is the high cost at West Marine they used to be discounters, now their manopolist with two stores on every corner and the highest prices I've ever seen. Of cource its a free country, for the present, so I can go to ??????? anybody have a China connection for Yacht Gear
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Buchanan, Patrick J.; The Great Betrayal: How American Sovereignty and Social Justice Are Being Sacrificed to the Gods of the Global Economy; Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1998. [ISBN 0-316-11518-5]

Uncle Milty's the dude who kicked the outhouse off the cliff with us in it.
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Now THAT's sure to be an amusing read.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Lofland
Great discusion about the cost of goods from over seas, what I cannt seem to understand is the high cost at West Marine they used to be discounters, now their manopolist with two stores on every corner and the highest prices I've ever seen. Of cource its a free country, for the present, so I can go to ??????? anybody have a China connection for Yacht Gear
We could start our own wholesale purchasing club. I personally would love to find someone to go in with me on a spool of 600' 7/16 sta set rope. And a spool of 1/4 SS 7/19 wire rigging. We could sort of start our own costco, all we need is a DBA, oh already have one... so all we need is a need... oh have that too... oh maybe some cash. Yeah more cash for more yacht gear. damn I'm addicted.

Here is a link to a whole sale rigging company.
http://www.peaktrading.com/categorie...CategoryID=121

Last edited by mjname; 12-15-2006 at 06:11 PM.
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Mike...thanks for that link...a very interesting read.
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morganmike: Thanks, that's exactly the point I was angling towards regarding the carrier group escort subs, etc.
Also, approaching in ones baffles is pretty much the only way to approach with any chance of escaping detection....which goes back to why the groups have escort subs in the first place. It doesn't indicate any particular technological advances on the part of the Chinese. It just shows they've been watching "The Hunt For Red October". They're just cloaked in prop wash.
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I hope that Morganmike is right about the U. S. submarine capability. We underestimated the Japanese rather badly in WWII, as for example the capability of their "long lance" torpedo which sank U. S warships at ranges out to 15 miles or so.

As for "free" trade making us a prosperous nation, how exactly does that happen? Historically, aside from sale of natural resources, the only effective means for creating wealth has been manufacturing. The nation that does not make things is dependent on the rest of the world for all its needs.
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Old 12-16-2006
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Cam's concerns about the market only working in a perfect world are ill founded. We live in a demonstrably imperfect world and yet the market does work. The Chicoms did not embrace capitalism because they wanted to, they did it because they had to. The authoritarian regime hurdle has already been seen to be no obstacle, or a limited one at best; Chile. Take a look see at their social security plan and tell me who is more progressive. What will not work is totalitarian control such as the former USSR and present day Cuba. Also keep an eye on Venezula. A country with a lot going for it has fallen into totalitarian control and I predict you will see economic chaos there within 5-10 years. You read it here first. There are, for the record, more manufacturing jobs in the US than there were 10 years ago. You can look it up. Of course things look different than they did ten or twenty years ago. when have they not? For one, I'm not driving that pinnacle of automotive engineering, the Ford Pinto, anymore. 20 years ago, the gloom and doomers were all worried that the Japs were buying up the entire country from Pebble Beach Golf Club to Rockefeller Center and that Japan, Inc. would be dominating the world. As Japan enters it's second decade of malaise it is not inappropriate to recall the misery index of the seventies and early eighties, where inflation and unemployment ran at 20% combined. It was Ronald Reagan, implementing the ideals of Milton Friedman, that ended the slide and touched off the largest and longest peace-time expansion in the history of the nation. That expansion, with only a couple of very minor recessions, continues today.
I was at the stereo store today and was amazed to find that I could buy a middle range receiver or mid-range speakers for approximaterly the same price that I had in the early eighties-which means they have actually dropped in price over that time period. With an average inflation rate of just 2-3% they should have doubled in the last 25 years. While Pat Buchannon has some good ideas, in some areas, if you look in the dictionary under xenophobe you'll see Pat's photo. American know-how and can-do is still keeping us on top; our productivity continues to lead the world. Also, Americans lead the world in number of hours worked-not because they have to, but because they want to. What other country comes close to us in per-capita boat ownership? It's us and everyone else is second. I'll bet anyone who cares to that US productivity will lead the world 5 years from now and 10 years, 15 years, pick your time frame.
The same people who were worried about our unproven troops and weapons going up against the 5th largest standing army in the world, a battle hardened army with proven Soviet supplied technology, in the form of Iraq in the Persian Gulf war, are now worried about Chinese submarines. Their tears of anxiety had not even dried by the time Stormin' Norman had the whole group wrapped up or running for home. The US Navy is far and away the most dominant maritime force ever assembled. The Royal Navy, in it's heyday, cannot rival the force globally projected today by our fleet. The dominant position is such that no adversarial nation is even attempting to build a fleet to challenge American seapower. The last nation to try has it's efforts rusting at the docks of Murmansk and Vladivostok.
Rest easy pollyanna, the US economy (and the US Navy) are in better shape than at any time since WWII.
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