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  #21  
Old 01-08-2007
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"There should be a maintenance log, " Never seen a boat with a maintenance log for the engine--except one owned by an engineer who literally wrote down everything. I'd bet most of us keep no detailed engine logs. (Informal poll?)

Archis, call me prejudiced but I didn't get along with the first Westerbleaks (sic) that I met, and when their rep told me they paint the whole thing after they assemble it--contrary to the advice of Goodyear, Gates, and everyone else who make the rubber parts that are then painted--I decided WB meant Looney Tunes to me. They also are an "assembler" not a "maker", they put out bids and assemble engines from the lowest bidders. Nothing wrong with that per se--but it means their engines will not be *designed* from scratch as integrated units.

The Universal's have a good rep, even though they are marinizing the Kubota tractor engine, tractor engines in general are built tough.

WRT marinizing *any* engine, or using a land engine in a boat...boats are different. Among other things, a car/truck engine is designed to have massive amounts of air flowing past it, cooling it. That just doesn't happen on a boat, so the heat issues, heat stresses, are different as well as the galvanic/corrosion issues. It certainly can be done, but I'd expect a marine-built engine to be better than what I could roll on my own.

One thing I'd look for: Is the fuel system self-bleeding? Some are, most aren't. Bleeding air out of fuel lines is a PITA that gets smelly diesel all over the engine spaces. Given two engines that were competitive, I'd go for the self-bleeding one all the time.
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  #22  
Old 01-08-2007
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JouvertSpirit ... Junk in junk out ... don't believe anyone mentioned a junker engine ... and I believe the Westerbeke (Isuzu) is a marine engine ...

Chuck711 ... roger the chips! Are the engines sprayed or dipped?

Nonetheless, Isuzu and Yanmar are both highly rated engine manufacturers worldwide. For me, it was a matter of pricing so where's the beef?
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2007
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To clarify the point I was trying to make with Gui regarding land verses marine diesels I respectfully submit the following.

To me, a land diesel is a commercial engine that is intended for land use but has been modified for marine use by a manufacturer. A marine diesel is one that has been designed solely for marine use and has no land component.

In my opinion, replacement parts for a land diesel (pistons, rings, rods, bearings, oil pump, starter, etc) that has been professionally modified for marine use are more likely to be found in remote locals than parts for an engine that was designed solely for marine use.

The Kubota tractor engine could be used as an example. I might find a gasket set readily available in Sumatra just because they have a lot of Kubota powered tractors. I might not be so lucky with a marine Yanmar and could be stuck in port for a long while awaiting parts.

It's not a matter of brand preference but rather one of parts and service availability in one's intended cruising area. If Puget Sound was my intended cruising area, my choice of engine might be different, but for the middle of nowhere, I'd choose the Japanese tractor engine. I build my boats so I have a choice of what I install and decisions regarding equipment are not taken lightly or without considerable research.

Regarding air flow around the engine. Pop the hood of a Chrysler 300M and tell me how does the air flow in there?

Thank you, the readers of this thread, for your patients and understanding. It was not my intent to start an argument but to state a preference and the reasons for that preference. Terminology seems to be the hang up, but try writing in another language sometime and see how well you do.
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2007
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Cockeyedbob,

You must be on something...you've contradicted yourself 3 times, disagreed with everyone, made remarks about their posts, about dealers, about marine and land diesels, and in the end, said absolutely nothing, agreeing with what other people said.

What exactly is your point and objective in posting?
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2007
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Don't know the pedigree of all those engines or whether they are true marine units.

What I do know is that I was quoted about $7000 for a replacement for my Yanmar 2GM (13 HP) last spring. I priced Yanmar and Beta models. That figure was for the engine alone. Luckily, replacement was not necessary, but based on my labor to remove and reinstall the selfsame unit, re-powering is time-consuming, particularly so if water intakes, shaft bed log, electric and exhaust system revamping were required.

I second the motion for faithful maintenance. A quality diesel engine, given good care can go a long time before overhaul, perhaps 5000 hours. That's a lot of 50 hour summers.
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  #26  
Old 01-09-2007
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Bob-
"Regarding air flow around the engine. Pop the hood of a Chrysler 300M and tell me how does the air flow in there?" Well...I seem all out of Chrysler's tonight but I can assure you, every car maker studies airflow. There's a fan in the front, in every car and truck, designed to suck air in past the radiator. And, often, intakes under the front bumper, plus a road pan under many engines now, to help ensure linear air flow past the engine block before the air is routed--and it is often routed with plastic covers and baffles--out the rear someplace. Sometimes up the base of the hood, sometimes out the bottom of the engine compartment in the rear (where the road pan doesn't extend) but it is all intentionally routed. Partly for better gas mileage and better grip at highway speeds, but very much for cooling. Remember also that radiator with the forced air flow on it. Granted, marine diesels will be water cooled in some way and water grabs heat 14x faster/better than air. But as you will notice if you try to touch an engine block after you shut it down, there are some damn hot spots on it--even though there is cooling water in it. Airflow over the block is all those spots get for extra cooling, in a car. It's all they are tested and designed for, and there's a long history of engines that are known for little things, like the old Ford 289 engines, great engines in the Mustangs but they'd burn the #2 valve if they overheated even once. Or the Vega 2300cc engines, which shared the technology of Porsche--but overheated if you let the oil OR water get low. And that killed their reputation real fast. They were designed to run at 210F instead of the more typical 170-180F, in order to get higher efficiency. Just a 30F difference--but enough of a change to make things go critical and melt.
In a raw water boat engine, you might be running at 140F so maybe that's an extra tolerance, but go with a closed loop heat exchanger (to me "fresh water" is too confusingly similar to raw water) and you're back to 170 again. then you've got to ask, can anyone relly save money by kitting together bits and pieces, and doing it on a small assembly line, as opposed to a real marine engine with everything designed right (we hope) from the start?

You're certainly right about almost anything being able to do a lot of 50-hour seasons and I suspect that lets a lot of folks get away with hell. There are folks who take the Volkswagon "Pathfinder" air-cooled diesel and use it in boats. It's a workhorse industrial engine, found all over the world. That's certainly one way to go. But of course, air cooled engines are less efficient, even the original Beetle was really lousy at economy once you figured out how little weight it was pushing around. Still...if the engine is cheap enough, you can afford plenty more fuel. You just have to hope EVERYTHING is done right, for the saltwater location with no airflow.
Which is also why many diesels have engine room blowers--to cool down the engine room after the engine is shut down. That's when oil is no longer flowing, coolant no longer flowing, and the oil sitting still on hot parts cokes up and turns to tar in the engine.
Then again there's resale value. Assuming you might sell the boat one day...having a known brand engine in it will increase the value. Having a DIY special in it...the next buyer may just take off $10,000 figuring he has to replace it.
Lotsa stuff works, and works "well enough". Sometimes saving $5000 is what counts, well enough.
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  #27  
Old 01-09-2007
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Giu -- Thanks for the data.

Looks like my suspicions were correct; the torque curve for the Westerbeke is flat, and that for the Yanmar drops way more than I would have suspected. Compression for the Westerbeke is 22:1; I don't see a spec for the Yanmar (cranking pressures are influenced by RPM and camshaft overlap, although I don't believe overlap would play significantly for low-RPM engines, but I'm guessing there.) If the Yanmar's have higher cranking speeds and higher compression, it may explain their not utilizing glow plugs.

Automotive diesels are lightweight for various reasons, but are utilized as variable-speed engines. Real (industrial) diesels are designed for constant speed operation and are not hampered by their mass. Neither the Yanmar's nor Westerbeke's can be called lightweight, but the Westerbeke's are heavier for their displacement. Looking at the spec's, by numbers of cylinders the engines are of comparable weight.

On paper, I'd take the Westerbeke. Don't know anything about the failure rates. But then I might be the guy who, having a crate engine, would disassemble and hot tank the head and block; then powder-coat, along with the rocker cover and oil pan (no paint chips). Check all dimensions and clearances. Balance the rotating assembly, align-hone the main saddles (makes them straight), do a real valve job, and re-assemble. That way you know you have an engine that will carry you for 15,000 hours, if you change oil and keep the fuel clean. In my opinion, anyone going way offshore should consider doing the same.

Wonder why Westerbeke has a significant rate of infant failure?

Last edited by jones2r; 01-09-2007 at 12:54 AM.
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  #28  
Old 01-09-2007
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"Wonder why Westerbeke has a significant rate of infant failure?"
Part of contracting to buy engine blocks from the cheapest bidder? Who knows *their* name won't be on it?
Might pay to find out who actually builds the block you're looking at and see how that engine does under it's own name. WB has used British Leyland, Mitsu (?IIRC), and other sources with varying reps.
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  #29  
Old 01-09-2007
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Sorry to disagree with you G. but most marine engines are based on "land" diesels that have been marinized. The real difference is how well the marinization has been done. A perkins 4.108 is a Perkins engine marinized by Perkins. A Westerbeke 4.108 is a Perkins that has been marinized by Westerbeke. Westerbeke buys long blocks (a long block is a block that includes a head and valve train) from many companies but I don't think they make a block themselves. I like the specs on the Mitsubishi and Kubota blocks and those are found marinized by Vetus, Beta, and I believe Universal. Let's get our engine guy to weigh in.
pigslo
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  #30  
Old 01-09-2007
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I got yer marine diesel right here! Bukh, baby. DV 20 in my Bristol 32.
21.5:1 compression ratio. That's over 680psi compression pressure yielding over 920psi combustion pressure. Fully balanced and silky smooth. The latest version of this engine is the DV 24 ME which uses direct injection (and revs to 3600rpm) over the DV 20's pre-combustion chambers and 3,000rpm redline.
http://www.bukh.co.uk/bukhhome.htm
And on the automotive diesels needing massive airflow for cooling? Get real. Do you see any cooling fins on those water-cooled engines? Massive airflow doesn't happen on bulldozers either, don't see them having problems. The only airflow issue water-cooled engines have involves the radiator fan. The airflow cools the water in the radiator, which is used to cool the head (s) and block. Oil also helps cool the engine, but the water isn't used to cool the oil (directly).

Last edited by seabreeze_97; 01-10-2007 at 02:56 PM.
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