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  #11  
Old 01-11-2007
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Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice
Sail I agree with you. Except with the part where you said the good stuff is disapearing.

However, if you look carefully, we are lucky that amidst all the bad stuff that is made today, (that fits its niche market, granted), you will still find well produced boats, and those, guaranteed they will stay.

There is a market for the bad, but there will allways be a market for Swans, Hallbergs, Pughs, etc. as long as there is demanding (read $$$) people, that know and can afford what they want.

Just like you said, there are a lot of chevy's but there are also a lot of Porsches, ferrari, Corvette, being built, and they will be. Because GOOD IS INTEMPORAL!!!

Yesterday I was joking with True Blue, and in his marina, they still make some of the best in the world. Are they going out of business because low quality production is increasing, ??? I don't think so. Their web page proves that.

I don't see a decrease in the good stuff, I see is an increase in the bad stuff, and that only means more boats in the water than before. i.e an increase in bad boats percentage, but good boats percentage stays still. (herd to write my thinking, hope you got it).

Because they became more accesible thru loans, leasings, etc. that produce short time living boats, whose purpose of existing is just satisfying the low $$$ public.

I had a friend that sold Ferraris, back in 1997. He would have one Ferrarri in his show room sometimes up to 8 months before it got sold. When he sold it he made enough money to pay his 8 month business hiatus, and would start again.

One day he stoped selling Ferraris and started selling FIAT and FORD, and other cheap cars. He would sell 20 in one month, made same money as before, but the profit on eaach car was lower. Why, asked him one day, he replied he got bored looking at the Ferrari for 8 months doing nothing.....

Sometimes, the low end sells more, because they need to produce large quantities to stay in business, and the more they make, the cheaper it gets, till competition kicks in, that's when production costs are cut.

Jones.

30 year old boats sell because they were made the old way, which made them good and durable, but the number produced Vs present today is less than half. (yes even in the old days they made **** boats). And because they are CHEAP, compared to new. Techniques 30 years were not so advanced and adhesives and materials were not so structuraly strong, so their solution was to build strong and heavy. That is why its durable. But the performance, well (except some cases) when comapred with new boats is way lower.

Me, personally, I still would prefer a 2003 catalina to a 1980 anything. There are markets and customers for everything.

Last edited by Giulietta; 01-11-2007 at 09:33 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-11-2007
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We should never justify the substitution of impervious materials with inappropriately expendable products, just for the sake of saving a few pennies. The topical question presented in this thread, challenges the logic used by many of today's production boat builders.

I believe minimum industry guidelines established by governing agencies such as ABYS, should have more control in regulating quality standards. There are certain compromises with boats that should never be considered for the sake of marketing and economics.
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  #13  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
We should never justify the substitution of impervious materials with inappropriately expendable products, just for the sake of saving a few pennies.

Unfortunately they do!!! Its a $$$ driven industry, not wind driven anymore!! And they do it BECAUSE THEY CAN, AND WILL DO!!!

And setting strict rules (at least in Europe) didn't work either, because manufacturers came up with all types of tests and certifications for their materials, and those got approved, well. Why???? because they are all idiots, those who certify!!!!

Boat builders, come up with all kinds of good results and certifications for shitty materials, you know how it works. Go inside a Bavaria and pass your hand inside the sofa. You get splinters in your fingers!!!!! Look at the hull windows on a Jeanneau, might as well not have windows, the water gets in anyway, look at Dufour's deck!! (glued with Sikaflex!!!!!!). I know I see it, I'm surrounded by those, over here, no BS here....

Just to give you an idea, of how the quality certification is working there. They made us read, sign and go thru all kinds of project studies, material certifications, for resins, fibers, , gel coat, electrical, hatches (yes we had to present Lewmar's hatches certification), mast certification, this, that etc.. during construction of my boat.
Everything needed to be certified and approved, the shop was audited 4 times for health and safety, (the builder could not have wood stocked inside the place where the hull was being made, (now hoe thte hell do you do that????) the construction was stopped one day so an idiot inspector did his "inspection", looked at the boat from the outside, smoked a cigarette, and demanded us to pay him lunch!!!

Finally, my boat was launched in end of march, and we had to submit the boat to sea certification, because being a prototype, it needed European Union Certification, done in Brussels, Belgium. So we had to hire a independent "boat Inspection authorithy", that sent a guy, that wanted to walk inside my pristine teak deck with his HILL BILL boots on!!! (we started on the wrong foot, really).

He came with a freaking transparent water hose, and wanted to nail it (yes nail it) to the bulkhead, so he could measure boat stability with 3 people on the bow, at port, starbord and stern!!! 3 people!!!!!!!!!!! on a 42' by 14.6' with a lead torpedoe 9' bellow the water line. The boat didn't move, obviuosly. He said we had somehow "attached" the boat to the sea floor!!!!!!

Then he went away, and we had to wait 3 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the papers, because, ho ho ho, those people in Brussels, ho ho ho, they are too BUSY STICKING THEIRS THUMBS UP THEIR ASS!!!!!

In the mean time, we had to do our work and sail and test the boat, but ho ho ho, we couldn't go to sea.!!!! Had to sail in a harbour!!!!!! with a 42' fast sailboat, where you can't even have a row boat, witha stupid EXP (experimental) sticker on the hull!!!

So my friend, now that I am really pissed off, this is an example of how boat certification is done here, and why Shitty materials are allowed in, (and end up there, in the US). (and don't tell me in the US is different, it is not, its the same **** everywhere). That is why you have bad boats being allowed and certified. It simply does not work, so forget it!!! Too much people, ho ho ho, with their thumb up their ass!!!
Yetr, we all know they are **** boats, but buy sail magazine, and, ho ho ho, the best boat of the year, the epoxy wonder of 5th avenue, the kevlar head wonder. Its all fake corrupt ****!!!

By the way. I was able to go to Sea, only in August when I received the Oceanic certification!!!


Hell just burst a vein in my neck!!!
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Last edited by Giulietta; 01-11-2007 at 10:44 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-11-2007
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My thought is that what they are doing is making boats the way people seem to want them. What I mean is that if you just forget about the cost in $us for a moment and think in terms of "having", it might be a different picture. Pick a time, let's say 1960 .. I wasn't around then, but some of you may have been! Say your father (or you) worked, had a house, a car, and a boat ... and that's really all your family could afford were those things. How about now, forgetting how much "more" everyone thinks they are making now ... if you are a mature adult male, and you work, and have a family, you buy a house at today's prices, and a car, ... if the only other thing you were able to afford is a boat, wouldn't you be able to buy a quality boat if you wanted one ?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think that the problem is that people have so much more money than they used to have and that boat manufacturers are building things so much more cheaply, it's that people basically have the same purchasing power that they've always had ... but instead of wanting a small house that is well built, they want a god sized mansion that is built like ****, and they want a god awful sized boat that is just as shitty. It's an expectations thing, they'd rather something look high quality than actually BE high quality. And they aren't satisified with a high quality (yet smaller) home, a high quality (yet more "expensive") boat, etc ... instead they want the boat, three suv's, the rv, two shitty built houses, 4 wheel atv's, jet ski, motorcycle, and anything else they can get their hands on, all built as cheaply and inexpensively as possible, and all on credit. Everyone wants to look like they're the damn Prince of Newark or something no matter what it takes, instead of just buying a small well built house, a car, and a well built boat, with cash, and having money to live on after you quit working.

Last edited by wind_magic; 01-11-2007 at 11:38 AM.
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  #15  
Old 01-11-2007
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Further to Giuletta's burst vein:

I recently completed the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) boat safety course and exam which is now required in some states as a threshhold requirement for operating a vessel on state waters.

I learned that:

The first two items, preceding any reference to life jackets, etc., on the "Safe Boater's (I maintain that a boater is a hat.) Checklist" are:
Do you have your "boater education card?
Do you have your boat registration?

I also learned that what I previously knew as an inboard-outdrive is really a "stern drive", presumably to distinguish it from all those bow drives out there.

Some material wasn't bad. They do cover very elementary rules of the road. A great deal is bureaucratic nonsense.

I confidently predict that the same nightmare of ridiculous regulation described by Giuletta is coming our way.

Last edited by Goodnewsboy; 01-11-2007 at 12:52 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-11-2007
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Giulietta-

Let me elaborate. The real reason that there is such a prevalent market for 30-year-old boats is that the prices of modern boats of quality construction is astronomical. An Alberg 30 can be gotten for under $25,000 in excellent condition, and needing fairly little work to make it bluewater capable.

Contrast that with a modern 30' boat, like a Jeanneau SunOdyssey 29.2 is going to cost you over $100,000 and won't be anywhere near as ready for bluewater use. A 2005 Pacific Seacraft 31 is going to be $178,000, but almost ready to go out of the box. A 2000 Island Packet 320 is going to cost $150,000.
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  #17  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnewsboy

I confidently predict that the same nightmare of ridiculous regulation described by Giuletta is coming our way.
Well my post was more oriented towards boat construction certification BS.

But actually, you will be surprized that in Portugal (and most of Europe), we actually have to have Skipper licences (several levels, depending of size of boat and destination), that vary from local, sportsman, basic Skipper, Sail and motor boat, Coastal and Oceanic.

In fact when I was 16 I had to go to marine school for 3 months to get my skipper permit only to be able to sail my 470 within 3 miles from my sailing club!!

Here I think we are doing good. You simply can't go to sea without a "driving license" appropriate to your boat size, type and distance from port.

The courses are hard, to very hard, some take 6 months and a lot of exams, but in the end its good, because it reduces the amount of idiots out at sea without qualifications.

So here, we score positive.
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  #18  
Old 01-11-2007
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The post from GUI... is exactly right which is why I believe and have bought boats that were built from 1982 to around 1992 where the object was not to build high priced cheap floating condos and w/o the useless certifications, even if you need to put in some time and money to update things.
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Old 01-11-2007
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Its GIU, not GUI!!
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  #20  
Old 01-11-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta

Here I think we are doing good. You simply can't go to sea without a "driving license" appropriate to your boat size, type and distance from port.

The courses are hard, to very hard, some take 6 months and a lot of exams, but in the end its good, because it reduces the amount of idiots out at sea without qualifications.

So here, we score positive.
Hi Giu:

If you will permit me the use of an old Maine expression;

If all these courses are required, howinell did a Portugese fishing boat recently run up on the beach in the surf line and lose its crew?
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