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Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats

15K views 49 replies 26 participants last post by  jerryrlitton 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello

I am sure they questions have all been asked before at some point, pardon me for asking them yet again. Then again thats what places like this are for, yes? I have been reading over the site the last few days and still have some questions.

About me:

I have been on, around and operating boats all my life. Fishing boats, race boats, ski boats, etc. I have been out on the sea untold numbers of times. Back and forth across the Columbia river bar and Tillamook Bay bar more times than i can count. Been on seas incredibly rough and potentially dangerous and seas so calm one would think they were on a lake. My father has been an avid fisherman all his life and imparted that to me.

I have a distinct lack of experience with sailboats though. Of course my fascination with them is greatest. I have been out on a sailboat on two occasions. One was just a motoring, the other a great day sailing on a Greek vacation. On that occasion the Captain was one of those who liked his passengers to learn the skills and do the majority of boat operations away from the dock. In other words he spent a lot of time napping. It was enough to spend the day listening to the sounds of the sails flapping and rigging moving about. It was a great experience even though is was only a day on the water with light winds. I need more of it, it only served to increase my long obsession with sailboats.

So, here i sit, very late 30s looking at middle age approaching and wanting something different and a sailing life seems perfect. Obviously it isnt always beautiful beach and sunny days. So, i spend my idle time wondering, dreaming and going to boat shows thinking about possibilities.

I also am fortunate in that i am in a position to be recieving an inheritance of a substantial amount. An amount that will allow me to purchase a very nice boat to live this kind of life and still have more than enough to fund continued adventures for years. If not extravagant, certainly comfortable.

My plan thus far, buy a smallish(20-25) boat to get some personal experience on after i take a few classes. After a few years have passed, i will be ready to move up and the financial aspect of things will be taken care of.

So as for my questions to all of you with the experience. Lets start with sailing itself.

The idea blue water long distance sailing really appeals to me, but the idea of getting caught in a really bad storm hundreds of miles from land terrifies me to no end. How do you all deal with this possiblity? Dont you worry your boat will come apart or go down?

I imagine that lure of such a passage overcomes the fears eventually as one wants to see more than lakes, river or coastal sailing.

Boats

The impression i get from reading here is that boats such as Hunters and Beneteaus are not held in high regard. That surprises me as they seem to be great selling boats. Is it that they are only ideally suited for sticking close to your base of operations? Kinda hard to imagine after spending 300k on the low end for a boat.

What is it that makes some of you regard them this way? Is it that a lot fo their owners use them for display purposes and putting around a bay?

Conversely, Valiants are held in high regard. What do they do that is so much different? What about Oyster or Hylas? Do they have what it takes?

All of the previously mentioned boats are some that when i first started researching this possible endeavor were all contenders as a craft i would purchase.

I am married but my wife doesnt share my passion for this and is uncomfortable on the water. So, i want a boat that i can comfortably single hand, even if i manage to coax her into joining my crew. I invision preferring something in the mid 40 foot range. Is this unrealistic? Just how much boat is too much for one person and is there a preferred size range for making blue water passages?

I am certain that proper knowledge, skill, preparedness and supplies make all the difference. That much seems obvious.

Any general knowledge that you have accumulated from the years sailing would be great. Personal perspectives and cautions greatly desired.

Thanks for any info.
 
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#2 ·
Some sailors never leave sight of land... others can't wait to leave the shores behind. While storms at sea may be dangerous, good planning and common sense can minimize your risk of encountering a truely serious storm. Weather routing is part of the skills you will need to learn if you're going to become a bluewater sailor.

If you don't have confidence in your skills and your boat, you have no business being out of sight of land.

Beneteaus and Hunters are really boatshow boats for the most part... many of them are geared towards people who want to have a boat, but aren't seriously planning on making bluewater passages on them. They are geared towards large living spaces, great accomodations, and creature comforts, more than they are towards making long passages. The quality of their boats has suffered due to past incidents, but some say that their quality has improved significantly in recent years.

If your goal is truly to go sailing, you don't need to have an Oyster, Hylas, Hallberg Rassy, or a Moody to do so. While Valiants, Oysters, and Hylas are very well regarded, they're also generally larger, much more expensive, and more difficult to handle short-handed.

There are many affordable boats that will allow you to go bluewater sailing like, the Alberg 30, the Southern Cross 31, the Allied Seawind 32, and others, at a far more reasonable cost than the brands you've mentioned.

A good book to read is John Vigor's 20 Small sailboats to Take you Anywhere.

One other thing to remember is that the costs associated with a boat, after purchase, are proportional to the size of the boat. The bigger the boat, the more the maintenance, gear repair/replacement, mooring, dock, storage and haulout fees will be.

One excellent book to get read is Changing Course. Get this book and read it... read it thouroughly and then give it to your wife. It may help her decide to go with you...which is far preferable to not doing so IMHO.
 
#4 ·
Jags-

If you want to know more about weather routing, you should probably start a separate thread about it rather than hijacking this one.
 
#5 ·
Vans,
You say you'd like to start small to learn the skills. A very good idea. Consider something like a Catalina 22 or 25. As a used boat, they are plentiful and inexpensive. Spend a year or two with it and then move up. You won't blow a wad of cash and you'll enjoy the experience.
 
#6 ·
After that step up to a costal cruiser, sail for a while than make your decision as to wether or not you want to go across the ocean.

The boats you mention have there nich in the market. We have discussed this time and time again. Would I sail my boat in Blue Water? No. But for our purpose, she fits the bill.
 
#7 ·
Vans in my opinion you should be looking at least a 27 foot boat. They are really not much harder to learn on or single hand than a 22 footer and have many advantages.

You will have some accommodations for over nighting or even a week or two. The boat will be more stable, less prone to heeling, at least suddenly so your wife will be happier.

You will likely have an inboard which is much nicer and can keep your batteries charged.

I would not be too concerned at this point about what is a capable offshore boat. Since I started on this board about a year ago it just amazes me how many new sailors ask about this. "where can I take lessons and what boat should I buy to sail around the world next year." A bit a of an exaggeration but not much.

Have fun, you have lots of boating experience so it should come easy. If you can, find someone to race with, great learning opportunity.

Gary
 
#8 ·
Though not a necessity, and certainly many start out big, by buying a smaller boat to familarize yourself with sailing, you'll not only have an easier learning curve, but learn something about what you want in a larger boat.
 
#9 ·
Vans,

Nice little write-up. I wonder if we all don't start out that way?? Same thoughts, perceptions, etc.

If you have followed this forum at all, you will know that boat selection is a VERY biased and debated subject... almost as much as ground tackle and electrical techniques.

I typically help work the boat show for Catalina, but I am in NO way connected to them. I do it for fun and to help point people on... and because I enjoy talking to people like you. Some people I point to a Catalina, others I will point to other boats. I am not an expert, but have been there a bit. That being said, let me respond:

There is NOTHING wrong with a Catalina, Beneteau, or Hunter. They do have their place. They have that thing that they were made for and good at, and they have that thing that they were not made for and are not good at. If you primarily are going to limit your offshore work to 3 days (maybe a little more, depending on the boat)... but will primarily be going from island to island... in my opinion, THEY ARE THE BEST BOAT. Better than a Valiant or several of the others mentioned. They are big and fat and roomy. The term floating condo is not far from the truth. But this is NOT a bad thing. This is how 99.99999999999999999% of people ACTUALLY USE their boat. I have been on MANY Valiants and other blue water boats. They are small and tight by design. 5 days at sea with pounding waves will really play havoc on coastal cruiser (Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, IP), but not (hopefully) a good bluewater boat. But when you drop that anchor... well, the Catalina is SURE going to be a LOT more comforable than that tiny little Valiant 50. Rememer one of the few truths of cruising, if that is in fact what you will be doing: 99% of your time is anchored, 1% is going. Now, where is that 'going'... that is what you have to answer.

Everyone dreams of sailing the great barrier reef, blue skys offshore, the sun setting over the Red Sea... but the reality is that most people never do it (even the ones that own the boats that can). There are too many reasons for this to intelligently discuss here, but in my opinion (knowing many of these people), it is because:

1) They found the islands and the things on this hemisphere more beautiful than expected and more than a person could see in a lifetime. Why leave it?

2) Offshore can be really ugly... and the enamour of it wears off after the first 24-48 hours. It is not 2 or 3 or 4 days to Australia or Hawaii... try a couple of weeks or longer at sea. Once you are about 100-200 miles off the west coast, you are out of sight of VHF and any timely rescues (if any at all) and any communications (without SSB/HAM or Sat Phone). You are on your own with no place to duck and you WILL weather whatever nature throws at you... including TD, TS, and Hurricanes (God Forbid, but it does happen). This might not sound so bad sitting in your chair and reading this... but when you are faced with mountainous seas and no one to help... well, that changes your perception.

3) Their boats are uncomfortable. You are just going to have to go aboard a V50 to understand what I am talking about. My Catalina 400 is bigger than a V50 in comfort and space down below. PS, I am a fan of Valiant's... do not take this the wrong way. I know the people there and have nothing but respect for them, their boats, and their service. If I was going to do a circum or really long offshore, it would be at the top of my list. And they really are not that expensive (compared to some others).

Let me ask you a question: Does Lexus make a better product than Ford? I bet you just answered yes. Now, let me qualify that question: If you own a farm and need to pull a trailer, does Lexus make a better product that Ford? Well, maybe, but no way in Hell you would take a Lexus over a F350. Get the point?

I know you have read some threads about people putting down the production boats (especially Hunter) and some of that IS deserved, and some of that is NOT. Valiant's are made better than Hunters, but it would NOT be my choice if I was going to be island hopping. If I had to choose between Hunter and Valiant, even if they were the same price, I would take a Hunter every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You are new at sailing and have probably not done much offshore work. Go buy a production boat (coastal cruiser) of your choice and hit everything you can in this hemisphere. They will be comfortable and you will learn a lot. Your wife will like the space and how much she can spread out like she was at home. If you ever become so bored that there is nothing left on this hemisphere that interests you, go trade your boat in on a Hylas or Valiant and push off from there. Or better yet, go pay Dockwise to ship your boat to Australia, save a few hundred grand, and avoid getting the crap beat out of you with three weeks at sea.

Just my opinions.

- CD
 
#10 ·
Well stated, Cruisingdad. I only cruise the Bahamas. I have met literally hundreds of boats over the years whose owners bought them because they started out dreaming of cruising the world. The majority of them never got further than the Bahamas. A couple we knew well over the last three years bought a Pacific Seacraft 37 new. They cruised three seasons in the Bahamas and then had to sell the boat, running low on chips. The boat wasn't the right choice, too expensive for them and too small (interior volume), also davits didn't work so they had to tow or haul the dink aboard all the time. It's the old "horses for courses".
 
#11 ·
Thanks Vasco.

It's too bad too, because PS and Valaint are AWESOME boats. The wrong boat choice kills (figuratively) more sailors as cruising is no fun than anything else I would bet. Catalina is not my favorite boat, as many of you know. It is not the safest boat. But let me tell you something, for a guy that loves cruising with his two young boys, two dogs, and a wife he wants to keep aboard, it is AWESOME!!... and... I could NOT make ANY PS or Valiant work.

Now my Hylas 54 or Mason... well, that is another story (and a different checkbook)!!!

Thanks again Vasco.

- CD
 
#12 ·
CD...great post. Vans...welcome! The only things I would add to CD's post are the practical ones. You are in the northwest...that means going anywhere exotic requires a blue water boat...even down to Mexico. That upside down catamaran on your coast a month or so again shows how rough it can be out there. Alternatively, you can buy a smaller boat up there and learn to sail and enjoy the cruising grounds north of you in the Puget Sound and San Juans. That is where I would focus your initial efforts as most of us would kill to be able to cruise a bit up there! And with currents and wind and weather that are often less than benign, you will get some good practice before heading off shore. My own advice would be to get something in the 30ft. range to start...something blue water capable rather than the Hunter type boats. Since your wife will NOT be joining you, you will find a traditional 30 footer snug and comfortable and MORE easily handled (set up properly) by one than a lighter production boat...and you will have a sea kindly motion that will keep you comfortable on passage.

Once you've gotten some miles under that keel...you'll know exactly what you want in a bigger boat OR if you really WANT a bigger boat as a blue water 30' boat may just be all you need. If I was getting a blue water boat to single hand around the world and money were NOT an issue...I would get one of these:
http://www.robinhoodyachts.com/core...re/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp&boat_id=1585480

But there are lots of boats that will do the job.
A boat over 40 ft. is probably not a good idea for single handing...otherwise Hylas and Oyster are certainly excellent passage makers.
 
#13 ·
I agree with most everything stated above. I have some of the same cruising aspirations (Bermuda, Bahamas, FL Keys, Mexico, etc.) but I don't have the experience yet. In order to remedy that, I bought a Catalina 22. I figure that I get some sailing experience in it, close quarters and all, and then move up. Anything will have more room down below than a C22. Plus, I'm having a blast while I learn. The whole point is to get out there and sail, right?

Canoeman256
C22
s/v Half Fast
Alabama
 
#14 ·
Always enjoy reading Cam's advice and typically agree. He is very experienced and you should listen to what he says.

I will add that Oregon is often not very kind in a storm. There are not a lot of places to duck. I HAVE sailed the Pacific, but NOT Oregon... so this is based on what I have been told. Watch you weather out there pretty closely. I don't care if you are on a V50, when it gets bad out there, it gets really bad. However, the larger Catalinas run all over those coasts with more trips up and down them than I could even begin to relay. Even the finest boats and most offshore capable boats can go down on that coast with poor judgement. I would put more emphasis on the Captain (yourself) than the boat. Get a big fat comfortbale boat the wife likes so you don't sail by yourself. All boats should be singled (in my often contested opinion).

- CD

Again, I personally put a lot of credibility on anything Cam says, but I would personally not be concerened about a Catalina in those waters if you are careful.

PS Look at a Catalina 36.
 
#15 ·
CD...I would be concerned about he smaller Catalinas offshore there but the main thing is he is single handing and doesn't need the room a Catalina provides...so why not get a blue water vessel? My thought was that initially he should buy and store up in Washington and cruise out of there rather than attempt the Oregon River bars and coast before he is ready. The Oregon rivers are not much of a cruising ground but you can learn to sail on them...but then there's not much to do!
 
#17 ·
Camaraderie wrote:
"My thought was that initially he should buy and store up in Washington and cruise out of there rather than attempt the Oregon River bars and coast before he is ready."
Very good idea!
I would also add that you should not be so quick to dismiss your wifes participation. Get a boat with an interior she likes and you have won half the battle to winning her over. You may not enjoy sailing by yourself as much as you might enjoy it with your wife, if you can show her how to enjoy it. Just make sure it is a wife freindly boat, (focus on the interior). If you can find ways to get her to take ownership through interior design she will be a more willing crew.
You don't need a bluewater cruiser for the Puget Sound & San Juans, a production coastal cruiser with creature comforts is the way to go here, and it will take you many many sailing seasons to see it all.
If your wife is a powder puff be sure to stay at marinas and harbours that have shopping, restaurants and sight seeing to pique her interest more.
 
#18 ·
My thoughts..

Hello,

I personally would buy a used boat that is in need of some upgrades or maintanance....I say this because when I bought mine I thought that there was nothing wrong with it and I sooned I was wrong. I have been in every part of my boat cleaning this, fixing that (not cheap), but invaluble experience.

I am confortable now fixing engine problems (replaced water pump, fuel injector, injectors..etc..), electrical problems (new battery, new LED lights inside), changing shrouds, chainplates etc...

I think this is an important part that must be learned prior to sailing in the great BLUE...

I say this without BLUE water experience...the farthest I have been is Miami to Key West and back...!

later...
 
#19 ·
Thanks a lot for the great replies, especially yours CD and Cam.

This helps a lot in giving me an idea of what i am after. Pacific Seacraft was mentioned. I went through one at the boat show two weekends ago and spent some time talking to the sales rep. I was surprised that that boat would do a circumnavigation. It certainly was cramped and tiny inside compared to the Hunters and Beneteaus i had just went though. I know if i ever hope to coax her into this plan it will require some space in the boat.

I guess this begs the question, just what qualifies a boat as a coastal cruiser and where is the line that separates blue water cruising from coastal.

Would coastal cruising here in Oregon with its unruly weather be such a different ball game that is requires a different type boat than say the Virginia to Florida coastal runs i have been reading about? Even if one stayed close to the coast would a run up the coast to the San Juans or down the the coastline to southern CA or even to the Panama canal for a run into the Gulf of Mexico be too much for a Hunter or Beneteau type boat?

Ive seen some rough seas and the thought of many days on them in a boat that is of questionable capabilities sends chills down my spine. Even if it is only a couple miles off the beach.

I had ideas of spending some days traveling up and down the Columbia to get my feet wet with overnight trips. Granted, the way the Gorge works it will be a chore heading up river.

Thanks again for the discussion.
 
#20 ·
Vans...While I've visited the Oregon coast but never sailed there, I've read enough as well I think to offer some opinions but others with actual experience can feel free to correct me.
The Oregon coast is perhaps the most hostile place for a sailboat in the entire country. There are no safe harbors to put into and the river bars are so treacherous when the weather kicks up that they are the stuff of legend. It is considered the roughest and most prestigious duty in the Coast Guard.
Like anyplace else...the weather can be fine and clam and you can take a day sailor out....but in my opinion it is no place for a recreational sailor in a production sailboat that does not have a LOT of experience and an excellent understanding of the weather windows and tides.
There are many other threads here which you can search on on the differences between a blue water boat and a production coastal cruiser but the hulls are sturdier and stiffer, the fittings and fixtures are designed to stand up to 24x7 pounding from the seas, and the boat moves THROUGH the heavy seas rather than slapping and dropping and shaking every bone in your body. I like the Hummer vs. a Caddy analogy since it does not disparage either design but indicates a purpose driven design.
Again...if your wife is not involved, I advise getting a sea boat and sailing out of the Puget sound until you are ready for the "desolate" coast which is far different than anything we have here in the East!
 
#21 ·
Vans - I just bought a boat and am in a similar position to you. I have sailing experience, but it is limited, especially compared to the other guys on this thread. I looked at all kinds of blue water boats, they make my mouth water! I love a well built boat that doesn't look like a floating condo. But, it would have been the wrong boat for me at this point. I didn't realize it at the time, but comfort is really important at this point in my sailing career. Pick a boat that you will be comfortable on and like to spend time on. I spend a lot of time on her just fixing little things and puttsing around, learning how things work, what is connected to what. I bought 34' and am glad I didn't go bigger, it would be too much for one. My girlfriend and I are a little cramped sometimes, but we compromised and gave up a little comfort for a better built boat. I would not be comfortable in her in the open ocean, although I think she would do alright, but I would feel absolutely safe up and down the west coast. And for now, thats all we plan to do. Look at it like going to a really good restaurant, your eyes will be bigger than your stomach. Cam and CD and lots of others here have given me lots of priceless info, and it is usually right on the mark.
 
#22 ·
although you can find plenty of silly posts between many of us here, when it gets down to it, if people are looking for credible advice from folks that have sailed in all sorts of conditions, on about every boat out there, this is the place.
i am going to side w/ the 28-30 foot crowd here. granted, i am partial to sabres (no secret there), and i think a 28' will give you a solid boat large enough to feel safe on, have enough space that said spousal unit might actually enjoy being aboard, yet still be comfortable to go off for a weekend.
i think a 22-25' boat can get "very small" quickly, for a novice sailor when the weather turns to worms.
after a couple of years learning the basics on a sabre 28...hey go for a hylas,hinckley or a swan...(and if we are talking a big inheritance might as well go whole hog).
as you hone your skills (we all continue to learn)..you'll buy a larger boat..develop bigger boat envy, want even a bigger boat..etc.
the next thing ya know..you'll be a moderator on here or have built a custom built 42' sloop.
the most important thing..., take some lessons and get out there and have fun.
 
#23 ·
Hmm. How about getting a 6-12' boat and learning to sail with the local kids or on a lake or wherever there is suitable water? Racing against them will teach you how to sail, as well as providing instant feedback on how you are doing. You might then try 20-30' or better local boaties are always looking for reliable crew who know the basics.
Hopefully you will always respect the sea, but as you acquire knowledge and competence your fear will diminish.
Your wife may change her thinking when four things happen. 1. She sees you becoming competent. 2 She has some pleasant experiences. 3 She becomes confident and competent herself. 4. You don't talk of doing marathons when she knows very well you can't crawl and wisely she would not go round a bay with you on a Hobie.
 
#24 ·
Hey Vans,

Okay... I have to say Cam's warnings about the Oregon region are very accurate :)

I live in Vancouver and have sailed off the coast near that area...

And, ... I have been in a HUNTER in rough water in that area, and let me tell you, it is some SCARY STUFF.

That boat is like a giant bobbing sphere with a mast and a sail. In 17 knot winds the boat's keel came out of the water when a gust hit the sails.

Also, most hunters do not have back-stays. (The thick steel lines that hold the mast when the boat us going down-wind)

I don't know about you guys, but that's scary stuff :)

I've also sailed a chartered 38' Benetau in rough waters. 30 Knots of Wind and steep 3 meter(9 foot waves) in the Georgia Straight here. It handeled very well, but I don't think I'd take that around the world. There are many design flaws in it.

Check out:

www.shannonyachts.com

Those guys in my opinion make the best Blue water boats in the world. But also the most expensive ones. What's good is they have a whole section which tells you exactly what yo uwant to look for in a blue water boat, I recommend you read it.

There are very small details in a boat that make it 100% better for blue water than other boats.

Like

* Placement of the shrouds...(Do they get in the way on the foredeck and create a trip hazard?)

* Hand rails on the foredeck (many boats don't have these or have poorly placed hand rails and people have to hold on to the life-lines)

* Location of the water tank... (many boats like Benetaus and Hunters aren't made for Blue Water sailing, so the water tanks are placed out of the way to create more comfort space... This sets off the balance of the boat and sets off the displacement)

* A boat designed to reduce Fatigue. You asked why most Blue Water boats are more "tight" on the inside? One of the reasons is so that you don't have to struggle to move about when the water is rough. In a big "roomy" boat like a hunter, you will often be flying around everywhere when the boat starts swaying.

When the interior is designed well enough so you have easy things to hang on to, this makes a WORLD of a difference.

The most dangerous thing on the Ocean is when you're too tired to make correct decisions, and when you're struggling around the boat, this happens fast.

So this ia biggie. Same for the cockpit, some cockpit designs are much better at reducing crew fatigue.

* And finally, the right keel for Ocean passages. If you want your wife on there, get a boat with a big solid led keel. If you're in the Oregon region and you're planning on sailing south to Mexico then DEFINITELY get a big solid keel on your boat, makes you feel much safer, the boat won't keel over as much and if it ever comes out of the water your boat will pull itself upright.
(Unless giant wales have rammed your boat and you're taking on water :) )

I agree with Cam that Oregon is one of the scariest places to sail :)

That's my 2 cents, I'm still an amateur to sailing but I've sailed many rough days on the West coast, so I think it's good advice :)

Kacper
 
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