My First Boat...Boat Term Question...

[Kacper]

Hello all,

Well, it's time I buy my first boat now, after sailing for almost 6 months I'm ready to do it. I know what I'm looking to do with the boat ( cruising around the islands and long distance blue water cruising), I know I want a big sturdy and heavy keel on it.

However, I don't yet feel like I have a thorough education on some of the "boat costruction terms" and how they effect the boat in detail ie: displacement, draft, masthead vs fractional. I know what a Ketch is but I'm not sure what a Cutter is.

Also, I'd like to learn more thoroughly about the different types of keel shapes.

Can you guys help me out? And maybe give me a brief description of how each part of a boat affects the boat's handling? And perhaps point me to a good reference online on the details of a boat's construction.

Thanks,

Kacper

[PBzeer]

K - You should spring for a copy of Nigel Calder's The Cruising Handbook. Half the book is devoted to the boat and it's systems. Very good reference guide.

While individual things affect a boat, it is how they are put together as a whole that is most important. Here's a link to a listing of "suitable" offshore boats http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html with a lengthy commentary on boat selection.

And to answer your one specific question, a cutter is a double headsail sloop.

[camaraderie]

Kac... Well congrats on making the big decision. First thing I would suggest is to search on bluewater boats here and read the already existing threads as a lot of what you ask has been discussed quite thoroughly. After that you may have more pointed questions to ask.
Here's a list of one guys take on what are "bluewater" boats worth considering which can give you some models to look at on Yachtworld.com so you can see what is appealing to you.
http://www.mahina.com/boats.html
It is not comprehensive...and leaves out Tayana entirely (which I of course disagree with since the 37 is a classic world cruiser) but it is a starting point.
How big a boat are you considering and what is your maximum price range? Will you be single-handing or having crew? Are you looking for new, slightly used or very used? Here's a couple of very brief answers to some of your basic questions:
Masthead rig means the jib/jenny is rigged to the top of the mast vs. a fractional rig where it is rigged lower and has less sail area. Typically mainsails are bigger on fractional rigs and the mast is a bit more forward than on a masthead rig where the jib is both more powerful and harder to handle do to size.
Displacement is a measure of the weight of the water the boat displaces and tells you relatively little about the performance as a 20000 lb displacement can come from anywhere on the boat...from the masthead to the keel...but that is still how much weight the wind will have to move. Many blue-water sailors prefer heavily built high displacement boats but new materials and production techniques have some opting for lighter, more easily driven boats that are nonetheless seaworthy.
A cutter is a boat with two headsails..see my picture above of a cutter rigged ketch!
Keels go from full to cutaway forefoot to fin, to bulb to wing to centerboard. Full or cutaway forefoot keels tend to be found on heavy displacement traditional boats. They track straight and have little leeway and offer protection to the rudder and prop. They tend to be pigs for docking manoeverability and backing up. Fin keels are found on the majority of boats today as they are quicker and more manoeverable and still can provide lots of ballast to keep the boat stiff and upright. Sometimes the fins have wings on them to allow a more shallow draft and still keep the weight low but wing keels tend to get stuck harder around when you do find shallow water as we all do! Bulb keels put all the weight down deep but are generally more suceptible to damage and typically found on racer/cruisers.
Combined with these keels are either spade rudders which are fast and help manoueverability as they are a "blade on a post" but they are more prone to damage since they hang freely. Skeg hung rudders are less quick but are supported in multiple places by the hanging skeg part of the hull which also protects them.
Contruction of hulls in "fiberglass" is a huge subject since both quality of construction methods and advanced construction materials exist today. So...I will just say for now that the biggest differences people focus on are the use of "chopped spray on fiberglass" vs. hand laid up glass mat, and cored hulls (which are esstentially a sandwich of balsa or foam between two fiberglass skins). Cored hulls MAY be light, fast and strong AND may be used just above the waterline or on the entire hull. You can see the debates on this on other threads...but the big risk of cored is water intrusion between the layers and delamination as a result.
OK...go read and come back with more questions!

[Cruisingdad]

Cam,

On your list there appears an oversight as Catalina is not listed either. Must be on the same list as the Tayana. (smile)

- CD

[TrueBlue]

Nauticats made the bluewater cruiser list on Cam's link . . .

[Kacper]

Hello there,

Thank you for your answers! Especially Cam for your extensive answer. You're always answering my posts

I am going off to read all you suggested now.

I guess a fin keel boat is what I will be looking for. I have heard that bulb keels are prone to damage as the bolts that attacth the bulb to the keel take a lot of stress.

My price range?

I am looking to spend between $15,000 to $27,000 on a used boat.

I have found a boat the other day that I fell in love with, but I don't know what you'll think of it.

It is a 1969 Discovery 32' cruiser. Tell me what you think.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1579604&checked_boats=1579604&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp %3Fcint%3D101%26toPrice%3D35000%26type%3D%2528Sail %2529%2BCruiser%26hmid%3D0%26sm%3D3%26enid%3D0%26l uom%3D126%26currencyid%3D100%26cit%3Dtrue%26ftid%3 D0%26fromPrice%3D5000%26ps%3D30%26spid%3D201%26sli m%3Dquick&searchtype=

This is right in my price range and the size I'm looking for.(28 to 35 feet) The interior is also very well thought out and designed very well.

This boat isn't on that list that you gave me, I think because it is more or less a rare boat and there ain't much of them around.

Oh yeah, I love the green hull paint job too But I am still waiting on a reply with more detailed specs from the owner. Apparantly he's sailed it across the Pacific several times.

How many people am I looking for the boat to hold? I think it will be myself and 1 or 2 other crew members. I might single hand it for shorter trips for now

Kacper

[camaraderie]

Kacper...I know nothing about this boat but she LOOKS seaworthy and well kept. If you proceed further with her, a couple of things would concern me.
1. The boat is built with a cored hull. I would not buy a cored hull but fine boats like Shannon use them so that is my personal predjudice. The main thing you need to worry about is that the hull is currently in good shape all over the hull with no delamination. Find a surveyor that YOU can trust if you make an offer and have it accepted.
2. Why is this boat priced so low? A couple of others are up near $30K and "yours" has a virtually new $10k+ engine in it. It may be a genuine deal but you rarely get a boat for 1/3 off the market price without something being wrong. Survey, Survey, Survey!
Anyway...other than that, I like her and think she looks ideal for your purposes and budget...hope #1 & 2 above are not issues!!

[sailingdog]

I would highly recommend Dave Gerr's book, The Nature of Boats. Great primer on design, construction, materials, etc.

[Jeff_H]

These are drafts that I had written for another venue but they may help a bit:
Rigs: All

The next topic in our ongoing discussion on selecting the ideal boat is rigs. Like most of the topics to date, there is no single universally ‘right answer’ when it comes to the topic of rigs. Boats are designed as systems and the each of the various rig types have their purpose and are best suited to particular hull types, and applications. The quality of the design is also important as a poorly designed rig of any type can make for a miserable sailing vessel that is hard on the crew and the boat alike.


Cutter and Sloop rig

These are the most common rigs being produced today. In current usage these terms are applied quite loosely as compared to their more traditional definitions. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs. Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sailplan or further aft, multiple headsails and in older definitions, a reefing bowsprit (a bowsprit that could be withdrawn in heavy going). Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. For the sake of this discussion I assume we are discussing the modern definition of a sloop and a cutter.

Historically, when sail handling hardware was primitive and sails were far more stretchy than they are today, the smaller headsails and mainsail of a traditional cutter were easier to handle and with less sail stretch, allowed earlier cutters to be more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than the sloops of the day. With the invention of lower stretch sailcloth and geared winches, cutters quickly lost their earlier advantage.

Today sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle. Their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware sloops are less expensive to build.

Sloops come in a couple varieties, masthead and fractional. In a masthead rig the forestay and jib originates at the masthead. In a fractional rig, the forestay originated some fraction of the mast height down from the masthead. Historically, sloops were traditionally fractionally rigged. Fractional rigs tend to give the most drive per square foot of sail area. Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Today they are often proportioned so that they do not need overlapping headsails, making them even easier to sail. One of the major advantages of a fractional rigs is the ability when combined with a flexible mast, is the ability to use the backstay to control mast bend. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay flattening the jib, and induces mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range than masthead rig without reefing, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills.

While fractional rigs used to require running backstays, better materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays.

Masthead rigs came into popularity in the 1950's primarily in response to racing rating rules that under-penalized jibs and spinnakers and so promoted bigger headsails. Masthead sloops tend to be simpler rigs to build and adjust. They tend to be more dependent on large headsails and so are harder to tack and also require a larger headsail inventory if performance is important. Mast bend is harder to control and so bigger masthead rigs will often have a babystay that can be tensioned to induce mast bend in the same way as a fractional rig does. Dragging a Genoa over the babystay makes tacking a bit more difficult and slower. While roller furling allows a wider wind range for a given Genoa, there is a real limit (typically cited 10% to 15%) to how much a Genoa can be roller furled and still maintain a safely flat shape.

Cutters, which had pretty much dropped out of popularity during a period from the end of WWII until the early 1970's, came back into popularity with a vengeance in the early 1970's as an offshore cruising rig. In theory, the presence of multiple jibs allows the forestaysail to be dropped or completely furled, and when combined with a reefed mainsail, and the full staysail, results in a very compact heavy weather rig (similar to the proportions of a fractional rigged sloop with a reef in the mainsail). As a result the cutter rig is often cited as the ideal offshore rig. While that is the theory, it rarely works out that the staysail is properly proportioned, (either too small for normal sailing needs and for the lower end of the high wind range (say 20-30 knots) or too large for higher windspeeds) and of a sail cloth that makes sense as a heavy weather sail or which is too heavy for day to day sailing in more moderate conditions. Also when these sails are proportioned small enough to be used as heavy weather sails, these rigs will often develop a lot of weather helm when being sailed in winds that are too slow to use a double reefed mainsail. Like fractional rigs, cutter rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. Unlike the fractional rig, the geometry of these running backstays typically requires that the running backstays be tacked whenever the boat is tacked.

Cutters make a less successful rig for coastal sailing. Generally cutters tend to have snug rigs that depend on larger Genoas for light air performance. Tacking these large Genoas through the narrow slot between the jibstay and forestay is a much harder operation than tacking a sloop. As a result many of today's cutters have a removable jibstay that can be rigged in heavier winds. This somewhat reduces the advantage of a cutter rig (i.e. having a permanently rigged and ready to fly small, heavy weather jib).

Cutters these days generally do not point as close to the wind as similar sized sloops. Because of the need to keep the slots of both headsails open enough to permit good airflow, the headsails on a cutter cannot be sheeted as tightly as the jib on a sloop without choking off the airflow in the slot. Since cutters are generally associated with the less efficient underbodies that are typical of offshore boats this is less of a problem that it might sound. Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the bad air of the staysail.

Yawls and Ketches:

As I said at the start of this discussion, boats are systems and when it comes to one size fits all answers, there is no single right answer when it comes to yawls and ketches either. A Yawl is a